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  1. #1
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    Why I Do Not Believe

    Ok, Chilly… and all believers who may be reading this; let's cut to the chase. I know I probably come on a bit strong at times. It is not going to get better from here. Because now, I am going to tell you what it was that “drove a stake in the heart” of Christianity in my personal case.

    But before I do… I’d like you all to keep something in mind as you read my words. You might think I am joking, but I am not. Here it is… from an old song that only people around my age will recognize. Ready?

    c’mon people now; smile on your brother; everybody get together – try to love one another right now!
    Now, you just keep those words in your head during the course of my little rant, and maybe you will be able to see my point a bit clearer.

    Ok, put your philosophy hats on, here we go.

    What do I expect of a God? Excellent question. Well, I suppose that I’d want him to guide us away from the ills of the world. I suppose that I’d want him to show us how to live like brothers. Forget the afterlife for now; let’s talk about how God will help us in THIS life.

    Well then. What is the greatest ill of mankind? Well, maybe your idea of what that thing is and what my idea of that thing is happens to be different. Yes, that’s allowed. The problem comes along when we argue which is right. If we simply accepted that we have different points of view, we’d be ok. But we don’t. We each must reaffirm ourselves, myself included, by being right as much as possible.

    To me, I just demonstrated the greatest ill of man in that last paragraph. Our seeming inability to accept the diversity of man. Our need to be right. Even worse, our need to cast others down as being wrong. It is this simple reason, that no, Mr. Rodney King, we can’t all just get along. We could if we accepted the diversity of man and the diversity of opinion, but we don’t. Instead, we must all believe that unless you are a conservative like Scrogdog that Scrogdog thinks you are stupid. Unless you are like me, you are wrong. And instead of devoting my life to understanding you, instead I spend it attempting to demonstrate to you why you are wrong.

    Even knowing this and understanding this I *still do it*. Sounds like an ill to me, yes.

    George Orwell wrote an excellent book once. It is called 1984. If there were any single book in the history of literature that EVERYONE, simply EVERYONE should read, it is Orwell’s 1984. It is a story of a society that has yielded to the weakness I have just described above. It is a story of the people in power setting the rules, demanding conformity, and quietly excising those elements whom, even after “training” are unable to conform to the main stream. Only they can be right. Harmony in society can only be achieved by identifying and eliminating those elements which don’t fit in to a given rule set, established by those who are “right”.

    c’mon people now; smile on your brother; everybody get together – try to love one another right now!
    And now, after identifying, to me, the greatest ill of mankind, after admitting that I am too weak to be other than what I am, after thinking that only a god could possibly help us out of this mess, I turn to God and what to I find, my friends?

    I find a God that does EXACTLY the same thing.

    I am not done making you mad yet. I can only ask that you try to have clarity of thought through your anger as you ponder what I am about to say.

    Think of this. Once upon a time, Nazis, who were supremacists and Uptopians, created something called “concentration camps”. The camps were used to contain those elements which did not “fit in”. The Nazis were, to themselves, “right”. So they made the rules that reinforced their “rightness”. Society can only be "good" if we eliminate those elements which don’t fit in. It was Orwellian horror come true.

    God also has a concentration camp. He also judges. He judges us to make sure that we conform, that we have the right patterns of thought, that we believe that Jesus was divine. It does not matter how we lived our lives, impure thought is not allowed in “paradise”. True paradise can only be achieved when the elements that do not fit in are cast in to hell.

    c’mon people now; smile on your brother; everybody get together – try to love one another right now!
    This cannot be God. I am sorry. It just CANNOT be. A God would not have the same failings and weaknesses as humans! A true God giving us the real truth would be showing us how to accept the diversity of his creation. He would not be judging people based on human concepts of right and wrong and he certainly would not be casting non-conforming elements of society to eternal torture!

    I will never believe this… I don’t care what the bible says, or how God as spoken to you. In fact, it is this simple thing which demonstrates to me that the bible is 100% uninspired by God and 100% created by man. If anything, if you want to link the bible with some sort of mystical creator, then I would suggest to you that Satan inspired the bible, and you have been misled away from the true intent of God with these words.

    I reject God teaching me that way of thinking.

    I might accept a God teaching me this;

    c’mon people now; smile on your brother; everybody get together – try to love one another right now!
    I know how a lot of you will now attempt to explain to me how God does exactly that and how I have misunderstood. No, my friends, I am afraid that to think that way after reading my post means that YOU are the ones who fail to understand.

    But, that’s ok, brother. I accept that. For now… lol.
    "Social networking" is an oxymoron.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrogdog
    I might accept a God teaching me this;
    c’mon people now; smile on your brother; everybody get together – try to love one another right now!
    I think i've heard that somewhere before.

    Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
    By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.
    "If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a KA." - Albert Einstein

    It's later than you think.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphtheplumber View Post
    I think i've heard that somewhere before.
    My point exactly. God says one thing and does another. At least, according to the bible.

    The brotherhood of man can only mean one thing; accepting the diversity of man.
    "Social networking" is an oxymoron.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrogdog
    My point exactly. God says one thing and does another. At least, according to the bible.
    How so? You are given a choice of whether you want to be in the club or not.. it's totally up to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by scrogdog
    The brotherhood of man can only mean one thing; accepting the diversity of man.
    I think that's covered under "Love thy neighbor as thyself".
    "If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a KA." - Albert Einstein

    It's later than you think.

  5. #5
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    You are given a choice of whether you want to be in the club or not.. it's totally up to you.
    That has nothing to do with my point. My point is that we are a diverse people. Our beliefs are different, our politics, everything. I'll bet you even think that the Ray Allen trade was good for the Celtics.

    By not accepting me as I am, by forcing me to conform to a single pattern of thought, the god (yes - lower case) described in the bible shows the same failing as man. The same failing that PREVENTS the brotherhood of man.

    Gods become suddenly and decidedly un-godlike when they are shackled by the same failings that man has.
    "Social networking" is an oxymoron.

  6. #6
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    There are some who walk the path.

    There are many who don't, but always think they will have a 'get out of jail for free card' when they cash out. Christian on Sunday, but coveting thy neighbour's wife on Saturday Night.

    You don't get saved by deeds, but those who will be saved do good deeds.
    The way we build has a greater impact on our comfort, energy consumption and IAQ than any HVAC system we install.

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  7. #7
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    I think that's covered under "Love thy neighbor as thyself".
    Does God do this by performing the act of casting me in to eternal torture because my thoughts are impure? Because I am unable to conform?
    "Social networking" is an oxymoron.

  8. #8
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    You don't get saved by deeds, but those who will be saved do good deeds
    Once again this does not address my core point.

    The god in the bible and George Orwell seem to be a lot alike. Save for the fact, of course, that George was being cynical in his writings.

    Why would I care about a get out of jail free card? The god described in the bible does not and cannot exist. Thus, niether does heaven or hell. Any book that describes a God as being subject to human failings does not descibe God at all. Way off.
    "Social networking" is an oxymoron.

  9. #9
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    So when the possibility of the existance of a God is eliminated, What does that leave us??? There is no "meaning of life" and no answer to the "why am I here" question..... It appears all life forms merely consume other life forms, try to reproduce and make it to another sunrise. It's a pretty bleak picture and it makes it understandable why religions arise.

    We just find ourselves here and make the best of it. I wonder if all forms of entertainment, Sports, Literature, Music , Movies and Television, vacations ...all keep us from thinking about how chaotic the world really is. It's easy to see the anger in your posts .... just under the surface ...sometimes boiling over ..then recedes...

    Once one accepts God, then there's no longer a need to look, or question... and it provides peace and "answers"...gives meaning to life.
    How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?

  10. #10
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    I am not attempting to eliminate God.

    I am simply saying that the description of God in the bible cannot be accurate. Because that describes an Orwellian God full of human failings. How can a God have human failings?

    The meaning of my life is the triumph over my "dark side". And what I give to my friends, family and the community.

    Yes. I am angry that society can't see the nature of the greatest of all of man's ills, and instead accepts a god that actually PROMOTES that way of thinking.
    "Social networking" is an oxymoron.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrogdog
    That has nothing to do with my point. My point is that we are a diverse people. Our beliefs are different, our politics, everything
    Yes, and this is addressed also. It explicitly says that there are different standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by scrogdog
    I'll bet you even think that the Ray Allen trade was good for the Celtics.
    I have no idea who that is. The only Celtic I've ever heard of is Kevin Gamble, and it's only because he used to live down the block from my parents.

    Quote Originally Posted by scrogdog
    By not accepting me as I am, by forcing me to conform to a single pattern of thought, the god (yes - lower case) described in the bible shows the same failing as man. The same failing that PREVENTS the brotherhood of man.

    Gods become suddenly and decidedly un-godlike when they are shackled by the same failings that man has.
    Nobody's forcing you to do anything.

    What failing are you referring to here? Are you saying that you should still be invited to the party, after you've spent all your time complaining that there's not goign to be one?
    "If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a KA." - Albert Einstein

    It's later than you think.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrogdog View Post
    Once again this does not address my core point.

    The god in the bible and George Orwell seem to be a lot alike. Save for the fact, of course, that George was being cynical in his writings.

    Why would I care about a get out of jail free card? The god described in the bible does not and cannot exist. Thus, niether does heaven or hell. Any book that describes a God as being subject to human failings does not descibe God at all. Way off.
    You want examples of God following the golden rule, not just telling us to "Do as I say, and not as I do?"

    Well I can't give you one.

    I don't believe in hell. You die, not saved, you die, its over.
    The way we build has a greater impact on our comfort, energy consumption and IAQ than any HVAC system we install.

    http://www.ductstrap.com/

  13. #13
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    No, Ralph, again, you seem to have missed this in my original post so I will restate.

    Throughout time, it has been shown over and over again that man is uncomfortable with those who are not like him. If someone's beliefs are different, or even if the color of thier skin is different, if thier political and social beliefs are different, then there must be something wrong with them.

    Orwell cynically postulated one scenario to deal with the "thems" of this world. The Nazi's made it a reality.

    And so does the God of the bible.

    You see, in Orwell's fictional world, and in the Nazi's real one, elements that do not fit in are segregated and then eliminated. Only then can society be "good".

    God has his own concentration camp called hell. And God has a plan. A plan to cleanse Eternity of infidels by floods and by judgement, and then to segregate, and for all intents and purposes, eliminate them.

    Once "wrong thinking" has been purged from Eternity, only then can "paradise" be true.
    "Social networking" is an oxymoron.

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