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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Boise Idaho
    Posts
    1,032
    re-read my posts above, you need an evap cooler instead of supply fan, we can talk circles all day, bottom line is if its on an evap cooler,on the hot days it will not be a problem. an air balance or "hood cert" will adjust supply vs exhaust.

    As far as a return being to close to the hot air, we never put returns in a kitchen, and if we do it goes towards the perimeter or away from the equipment as much as possible, even by the managers office if possible, not sure if this is a walk up stand or restaurant.

    there is nothing wrong with tha hanging plenums outside the hood or air curtain or whatever they have. you could put a scoop on it but if balanced right wont matter. the kitchen needs to have a switch that can turn the pump on and off in the cooler, when its cool outside, fan only works fine

    matt

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    11,808
    I would have a commercial kitchen on its own system. You therefore draw return from it.

    No returns from a kitchen is a residential strategy

    If the hot air goes towards the return of a system serving a commercial kitchen then I say good, it is giving the AC a chance to deal with some of make up air heat before it all mixes into the kitchen

    A swamp cooler will make a big difference on the make up air of a new york kitchen
    The way we build has a greater impact on our comfort, energy consumption and IAQ than any HVAC system we install.

    http://www.ductstrap.com/

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Boise Idaho
    Posts
    1,032
    Quote Originally Posted by Carnak View Post

    No returns from a kitchen is a residential strategy
    sorry but not sure where you heard this, in some places it is in fact code for no returns in kitchens from outside zones (such as dinning areas), you could spread smoke! my background is 95% commercial and very large custom homes. I have several hundred restaurants and prob 150 hoods that I have personally installed.

    matt

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    11,808
    matt, don't put the kitchen on the same system as the dining room. Keep the kitchen negative with respect to the dining room.

    No returns from a kitchen is a residential strategy as you have it on the same system as the rest of the house.
    The way we build has a greater impact on our comfort, energy consumption and IAQ than any HVAC system we install.

    http://www.ductstrap.com/

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Orange County, New York
    Posts
    1,458
    The whole place is open except for the bathroom.

    There is the Kitchen, Area where the windows are to serve the people ordering ice cream (2 windows), and then that area is open to the dining area.

    Everything is pretty much wide open except for a knee wall and a bathroom.

    Commercial heat load was calculated and thats where I suggested water cooled equipment and exhaust hood. Unfortunately we didn't do the hood or ref. equipment, just the H & AC. Now in the winter time this make up air is going to blow in 20 degree air from outside.

    I didn't calculate cfm for hood or makeup air or any of that because it should be the responsibility of the guy that designed the kitchen equipement.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Boise Idaho
    Posts
    1,032
    evap for pre-cooling make -up air

    rezner or equal for the peheating the air in the winter, the cooler is the fan for both modes

    bottom line is they should have had it engineered or speced so this could have been addresed

    yes dedicated system for kitchen, which is standard practice where I come from, but since this is an open floor with no kitchen or pass through window with a wall, the returns should not have been by the heat source cook area, piss poor design on a/c end as well, you could spread smoke!!! return away from kitchen supplys dont matter, and make-up is only in volume to the e.fan for the hood, not to temper the kitchen to keep from pulling a negative. you could have added extra tonnage to the a/c and use a/c as make-up, but that is expensive and the volume needed could possibly not fit in this small restaurant

    so add a evap and reznor and move the returns you will be fine,

    matt

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Orange County, New York
    Posts
    1,458
    There are 4 returns throught the area. 9 feet away from the hood is such a big deal on that? Even if I moved it to the other room, the whole area will still heat up due to the amount of air being pushed into the building. Smoke will spread no matter what with this floor plan being open throughout. This is an 825 sq ft area as well. Not big rooms or area.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Boise Idaho
    Posts
    1,032
    if designed correct there is no smoke, slight neg on hood exhaust!!!

    poor design

    matt

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    manitowoc wisconsin
    Posts
    4,943
    You may not have put the hood in but if you don't balance it you are going to be the bad guy.
    You will never convince the owner that you didn't undersize the equipment until it works on a hot day.
    You are coming into this as the bad guy.Stop pointing the finger,air balance the hood & make the customer happyIMO.
    That is unless of course you really did undersize the equipment.
    It is new you could address the issue with the hood contractor & get them to come out to readjust the hood if you are not comfortable doing so.
    Take your time & do it right!

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Orange County, NY
    Posts
    936
    Steve, sounds like your talking about a combo make-up air and exhaust hood where the make-up air blows out from the front of the exhaust hood.

    That’s the cheapest one you can get and not very good , there is a lot of spillage with those hoods.

    Bottom line in our area you need to condition/ temper the make-up air.

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM
    Posts
    104

    Lower the load on your kitchen with a different MAU plenum.

    I work for a company that does cooking equipment and HVAC service for many restaurants. Recently I went to a one day seminar put on by Captive Aire, and it really opened my eyes to the problems encountered in commercial kitchens. I would recommend calling Captive Aire to get some expert advise. In the seminar they illustrated the problems with most types of makeup air delivery. The best type is the perforated kind that blows down in front of hood. Velocities are very critical and as someone mentioned slowing down exhaust and MAU will lower the heat load for the HVAC units in the kitchen. You do not want the untempered air entering the space that you are trying to cool. Most of the makeup air in a properly designed and set up system will be exhausted through the hood. The "short circuit" style hood that you referred to is also an obsolete design.http://www.captiveaire.com/engineering.asp
    Last edited by maninblack; 06-30-2007 at 10:33 PM. Reason: added link
    Mark

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Boise Idaho
    Posts
    1,032
    you are just suporting our info here!

    Captive air is the brand I install the most of, good lead time and good prices, their web site is great for putting specs together for control panels and getting cut sheets

    matt

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    St Paul, minnesota
    Posts
    1,134
    a swamp cooler in new york will not work, just as it won't work in minnesota. there is too much humidity in the air. the issue is correct balancing & making sure the building a/c is large enough to handle the load. as far as winter time goes, yeah, you can add a duct heater with a stainless steel heat exchanger or you can remove the supply fan & install a direct fired make up air unit. you can add a/c to the make up air if needed. here in mn. a non tempered make up air system is illegal. was any permits pulled when they put this system in? if it was all of this should have been caught & corrected by the original installer.

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