Programmable Controller Logic Ownership?

[Jay_T]

Who owns the program in a programmable controller?

The contractor owns as "proprietary intellectual property" or the customer for purchasing?

I have seen specs where it is specified that all backups and software needed to re install or make changes to programs shall be provided. I have also run into a situation where a customer purchased without such a contract and the control contractor stated his program was, "proprietary intellectual property". He likened it to an OEM controller. The OEM won't release the program or logic diagram for their boards in their equipment.

Who here has run into this? On either end of this?

[s2sam]

Good day Jay,

I do not think you will find one definitive answer that satisfies all circumstances. In most cases the Court will refer to what was written in the contract. If there are no direct ownership details contained within the contract, then the Court would review what work was being done and then decide upon what would be the reasonable expectations upon the Customer. Notice I said "reasonable" expectations... which is ambiguous, as it would be highly dependent upon the Judge's experience and law interpretations as well as the parties presenting their views/cases to the Judge.

If anyone has any concerns about the intellectual property (IP) ownership then they should clearly spell it out in the contract, estimate, etc, as relying upon a neutral third party (i.e. Judge) to make the call could result in an entirely different outcome than what you would expect and/or want.

Cheers,

Sam

[osiyo]

Who owns the program in a programmable controller?

The contractor owns as "proprietary intellectual property" or the customer for purchasing?

I have seen specs where it is specified that all backups and software needed to re install or make changes to programs shall be provided. I have also run into a situation where a customer purchased without such a contract and the control contractor stated his program was, "proprietary intellectual property". He likened it to an OEM controller. The OEM won't release the program or logic diagram for their boards in their equipment.

Who here has run into this? On either end of this?

<Shrug> Our practice has been to give the customer a FULL set of as-builts. Since long before I went to work here. (Been with the current company for 13 years)

That includes a full schedule of materials/parts used, cut sheets and full manuals where applicable, full schematics, written sequences of operation, backup configuration files for the controller I/O's and control loops, compiled and plain text versions of any custom programs, etc. Database, where applicable, that was made up for the front end. These days, full backup of Jace or AspectFT front end.

Why not?

Customer paid for it.

Now if the customer wishes a copy of the additional software needed to actually make uses of those backup configuration files for each controller, or the software need to actually compile the plain text source files into usable executable custom programs ... customer has to pay extra for that. Unless it was already specified in the contract and the bid included a suitable amount to cover that expense.

Truly, it has never really been a problem. Of the couple hundred, or so, customer accounts I have personally dealt with, not more than 1 or 2 per hundred had anyone in house that's spend the time, or be allowed to spend the time, to become more than able to make very small alterations to the system. With any competence. Have had several who've had someone in-house who THOUGHT he or she was some hotshot ... and so far they've always been wrong.

Good for business when we get called in to fix what someone else screwed up. We lost money when one in-house fellow decided to retire from a large organization we service. He was their in-house hotshot. Egads, he made us a lot of money with his screw-ups. If he'd actually kown half of what he thought he did ... I'd have voted him in as DDC Master of the World.

Copies of configuration data, custom programs, etc we give em. If they can actually make use of them effectively ... good for them.

But there are things we don't give out. For example, we can make up points lists for each controller (in Excel) and have custom VBA utilities made so that at a press of a button ... a database will be made that a particular front end needs. We have Visio templates made up, and standardized stencils made up, which make doing the schematics much easier as well as a listing of Bill of Materials for the project. All time savers. And so forth. THOSE ... we do NOT give out.

Likewise we have a standardized list of materials and parts to be used on any particular project. The list includes not only part numbers, it included precise instructions to the installers as to how they are to be installed, and wired. Which standard parts are decided upon (temp sensors, gas sensors, actuators, relays, etc) are decided upon by a committee made up of techs and engineers. Based upon their experience with same as far as ease of installation, MTBF, cost, and so forth. THAT we give out to no one. It's beneficial because our installers each have a copy of that document and thus know exactly how we want it wired (a note is made on each schematic that directs them to a specific set of instructions that tell them if we want 4-20 ma, 0-10VDC, 2-10VDC, bi-directional, uni-directional etc setup and exactly what to put any jumpers or dip switches at). Saves a lot of trouble later. Besides notes on the schematics telling them where to look in their standard parts manuals, points sheets also mention same.

That's what I have to say on the subject.

ANYONE can do a control system. To do it right, so customer is delighted with operation and the looks of the wiring and control cabinets, and cost effectively AND you get very few call backs ... is a whole different subject.

Logic ownership, really, is a moot subject. I could look at someone else's logic and accomplish the same thing with enough difference in just how I went about it, to satisfy any court.

[MatrixTransform]

if want to own the programmed software as well then you better have deep pockets cos at a guess you'd also be responsible for absolutely everything it does ... or DOESN'T !!

[orion242]

if want to own the programmed software as well then you better have deep pockets cos at a guess you'd also be responsible for absolutely everything it does ... or DOESN'T !!

Well I'm with osiyo on this. We give away the programming tool to any customer that requests it. In our software I can easily compare a live program to a saved copied, aka the as-built version. When compared, I can get a full report of any and every change. If I get a warranty call and find the programming has been changed, it’s no longer a "warranty" call. To date, this has never happened.

Bottom line, it’s the customers system and if they want to hose it up, go for it. Burn the system after I put it for all I care. As long as we did our job well and get paid, the customer owns the system and can do anything they want with it.

I get at most 1 or 2 requests / requires the programing tools each year. Of the last 15 years, only 1 has ever actually used the tools and made modifications. IMHO if a contractor is plastering their drawings and such with copyright / IP warnings, I would run away from them as an owner.

a situation where a customer purchased without such a contract and the control contractor stated his program was, "proprietary intellectual property".

This would be the last thing I ever used that contractor for. Especially if I was looking for another contractor to service me after the first guy did a piss poor job.

[Jay_T]

Thanks for the input.

I have always practiced turning over to the customer all they need to be as self sufficient as possible, I believe they paid for the project including the programming.

This came up awhile back when a customer wanted me to look at a system he had in his building. The company I work for did not install or rep the products installed. The customer felt the system was not performing as should and was constantly charged to "tweak" the system. They asked if I could look at it. To be fair to the installing contractor, it was an industrial application, however, I have done quite a few industrial apps and have never thought it would be right to withhold drawings, sequence of operations, program files, or software (paid for or the right to purchase) from the customer.

I guess the comparison the installing contractor provided of his project to an OEM controller would only be true if his work as patented.

[control$]

Who owns the program in a programmable controller?

The contractor owns as "proprietary intellectual property" or the customer for purchasing?

I have seen specs where it is specified that all backups and software needed to re install or make changes to programs shall be provided. I have also run into a situation where a customer purchased without such a contract and the control contractor stated his program was, "proprietary intellectual property". He likened it to an OEM controller. The OEM won't release the program or logic diagram for their boards in their equipment.

Who here has run into this? On either end of this?

It's the customers software. Your dealing with a very shady control vendor if you can't see or modify the logic.

[s2sam]

<snip>

Logic ownership, really, is a moot subject. I could look at someone else's logic and accomplish the same thing with enough difference in just how I went about it, to satisfy any court.

Good day Osiyo,

I understand what you are saying, but... be careful, as you are making an assumptions that the court has the background and knowledge to understand and interpret what you did as being substantially different. Secondly, by stating that you "looked" at someone else's work, a Court could interpret this that you infringed on their Intellectual Property... When it comes to IP Law or any Law for that matter there are a lot of variables that cannot take for granted. Hence it is always best to spell out as much detail in a contract so that a third party can clearly see who has what, who owns what, etc without having any specialized knowledge in what is actually being done.

Cheers,
Sam

[osiyo]

Good day Osiyo,

I understand what you are saying, but... be careful, as you are making an assumptions that the court has the background and knowledge to understand and interpret what you did as being substantially different. Secondly, by stating that you "looked" at someone else's work, a Court could interpret this that you infringed on their Intellectual Property... When it comes to IP Law or any Law for that matter there are a lot of variables that cannot take for granted. Hence it is always best to spell out as much detail in a contract so that a third party can clearly see who has what, who owns what, etc without having any specialized knowledge in what is actually being done.

Cheers,
Sam

I understand what you are saying, Sam. And appreciate the warning.

But any time some COURT, decides they know much if anything about our business, they can sue me at will. nd I'll accept the consequences.

But, in truth, 99.99% of the time all I am doing is responding to a customer's complaint and trying to change things to make their system work correctly. VERY few times have I seen code that I'd really want to copy if I were starting from scratch and using my best judgement as to how things ought to work.

Have you actually LOOKED at some of the work out there?

Shameful ... that's as much as I can say. Well, I could mention Snake-OIL, Charlatan, Wanna-Be, etc. Or I could say, as I'd normally be inclined, CHEATING SOB ...

But I try to be charitable, and just think others don't know better. But, to tell the truth, I don't believe that.

[jcipaul]

Always the customer

[osiyo]

Always the customer

Positively ... They paid for what they got.

If you're so afraid that some peice of code is all you've got ... get into some other line of business.

[kontrolphreak]

I have experienced that a lot of these energy optimization contractors lock out not only the customer but the EMCS/DDC contractor from viewing code, let alone revising or editing it. I know that Siemens have copyrighted their optimization program, the patent is online and has a tonne of data on their "logic".

When I was doing mission critical work we brought in an outside programmer and it stated in his contract that all programming became the intellectual property of the company I was working for. He said fine, "I'll code everything from scratch" and not use any of the library he had developed over the past 20 years. Was being paid by the hour.

I firmly believe it is the owners property once they have paid for it, but I have had a company that used the same product as us come in and upload all the code we had developed and used it on other projects which I thought was shady.

kontrol out

[orion242]

Shameful ... that's as much as I can say.

LOL you mean something like this flawless DX9100 install??




Whole install was pretty much ran with CAT4 cable. On the outputs, they must have thought the 24awg wire was a bit lite and they paralleled the conductors. Nothing much supported in away way as you can see.

Definitely one of the better piles of crap I came across this year.

[s2sam]

I understand what you are saying, Sam. And appreciate the warning.

But any time some COURT, decides they know much if anything about our business, they can sue me at will. nd I'll accept the consequences.

But, in truth, 99.99% of the time all I am doing is responding to a customer's complaint and trying to change things to make their system work correctly. VERY few times have I seen code that I'd really want to copy if I were starting from scratch and using my best judgement as to how things ought to work.

Have you actually LOOKED at some of the work out there?

Shameful ... that's as much as I can say. Well, I could mention Snake-OIL, Charlatan, Wanna-Be, etc. Or I could say, as I'd normally be inclined, CHEATING SOB ...

But I try to be charitable, and just think others don't know better. But, to tell the truth, I don't believe that.

Good day Osiyo,

You will not get an argument from me, as I totally agree with you. My only point was that when it comes down to Court or a Judge you cannot take anything for granted... Although one may feel that their case is a slam dunk, there is a probability that the Court will not rule in your favor... common sense (Court/Judge) decisions are not always made... alas...

Indeed, I, like you, prefer to not to mess with other peoples nonsense... as when you touch it it becomes yours ... and who wants to be associated with the crap that some people try to get away with...

Like I said, I am with you totally on this one and if I gave you the impression otherwise, then my apologies!

Cheers,

Sam

[control$]

Did anyone padlock the the old mcc control panels back in the day? What difference is this? It doesn't matter how much time anyone spent programming or engineering anything if it doesn't work. And from what I've seen is almost everyone programs the same mousetrap differently. You can't troubleshoot what you can't see.

[MatrixTransform]

LOL you mean something like this flawless DX9100 install??.

Ahhh JCI ... octopus made from a dog by nailing on extra legs

and who owns the code (if you can call it that) in the DX I wonder

[orion242]

who owns the code (if you can call it that) in the DX I wonder

You can have it and the controller it road in on for $100 + shipping! Act now and I'll toss in the expansion modules and a 500' of CAT4 at no added cost. Everything you need to recreate the original masterpiece.

[osiyo]

LOL you mean something like this flawless DX9100 install??

Darn, looks like the guys who did that project, also did a few in my area.

[osiyo]

Like I said, I am with you totally on this one and if I gave you the impression otherwise, then my apologies!

Cheers,

Sam

Nah, I knew what you meant. And courts, especially in some places, can make very curious rulings that'd make little to no sense elsewhere.

My only point was that if some other controls contractor did a poor job for a customer who has now asked me to make things work right for them. As has happened just recently at one site. I'm going to do what I deem necessary to get that done. If that previous contractor wants to complain and threaten to haul me to court. I'm gonna tell em, "Go ahead."

In this recent case I worked on, part of customer's building had been done a few years ago by another contractor. A JCI outfit. I'm not bad mouthing JCI, I'm saying the particular contractor and his controls people did some really sucky work. And numerous parts of the system had not worked correctly from the get go. Maintenance chief for the building had been having to make sure he was there early every morning to change assorted set points, in some cases manually override stuff until building finally settled down and he could put things back to auto. Maintenance chief had decided that the rest of the building conversion to DDC would not be done by the same contractor.

Nor did he want to stick with JCI controllers. Although he wanted to keep the ones installed as much as possible. To keep costs down on this next conversion phase. But agreed that where we deemed it necessary, he'd pay the extra costs. His thoughts were that eventually, as the JCI stuff failed, we'd replace with something else.

Well, in some cases, for me to make whatever work correctly, and yet keep as much of the original JCI installation as possible, it was necessary for me to do some reverse engineering. The contractor had left the customer NO documentation, backups, schematics, points sheets, or anything else except a floor plan drawing of the building with location of controllers penciled in on it. And refused to provide anything else when customer asked for it.

In some cases we were able to modify some configurations, after we figured out exactly what they had been doing. In other cases we were able to make slight custom programming changes (we borrowed a guy from another of our departments who used to do JCI stuff). In still other cases we did things like leave a DX9100 in place, but it now controls only half of what it did. We installed another make of controller to take over the functions that DX9100 wasn't doing at all well.

Etc. BTW, now customer has at least some documentation for the JCI stuff. Points sheets, schematics, parts lists, and so forth. We also wrote up some written sequences of operation for customer's records. After we tested, simulated various conditions and so forth until we had a pretty good idea who was doing what and how. And, of course we gave customer full documents, backups, and so forth for the new stuff we installed.

Now, in the future it is likely that we'll end up replacing more controllers on that JCI site. But we'll probably keep the installed VAV controllers and replace them with same if any fail. Our ex-JCI guy made some sort of backups of all those. There is something like just a couple short of being 100 of them installed. And customer is satisfied with their operation.

I suppose that could be construed as stealing that other contractor's intellectual property. <Shrug> I don't care. And those backups are to be used ONLY for that customer's site.

Now, a few years back, 7 or 8, we became aware that another competitor who also dealt with some of the same lines of controllers we did, was using EXACTLY the same custom programs we'd made up for assorted types of control strategy. We kept copies of a bunch of stuff, previously used and proven tried and true, in a library for our techs to use. Instead of starting from scratch, tech could pick a proven routine suitable for the task, make any minor changes that might be needed, IF any changes were needed. Hit compile, then download executable into controller.

One of the other company's techs screwed up and was working at a site. Left a copy of that folder and its subfolders that contained source codes in plain text on customer's desktop. I was there at customer's request, since some of the stuff the other guys put in wasn't working correctly. Customer had tried to get the other guys to fix the problems several times, finally got fed up and called us. I was sent out to the site. I asked customer about documentation, backups and so forth. Customer didn't know for sure but said other guy had been using their desktop, and maybe he'd left the stuff on there.

I checked. I was really surprised to look at plain text source code ... that still had comment lines in it identifying it as ours, complete with creation and modification dates, and identified as being originally made up, or modified by one of our guys. There was his name right there. I check another known and familiar one ... there was MY name.

We'd not had anything to do with that project/site.

Looking further, found utilities made up to do special tasks that saved us a lot of times. And those utilities were made by US. Points sheets were virtually exact copies of the way we did them, only the company name had been changed. Etc. Etc.

You betcha. Took that back to our office, head man for our division called the lawyers we normally use, and they drafted up a cease and desist order right quick. And had no problem getting a judge to put his name on it.

It got straightened out right quick. Turns out one of our former guys was now working for that competitor. And that fellow had copies of all our stuff, and was using it all without even a pretense that he wasn't ripping off stuff he KNEW we considered our intellectual property.

In the end it worked out amicably enough. No big court battle. Turns out the higher level honchos of the competitor were not aware this guy was using exact copies of all our stuff. The custom software tools we'd made, we told them they could not use. And, Egads Folks ... make up your own format for points sheets etc. At least make em look different than ours. The library of source code, come on ... at least make some pretense at putting some of your own work and sweat into them. And they made all that happen.

Now, we do leave customer with copies of everything. For custom programs, source code does not include sub-routines and such we did not need to use for that project. And source code has comments stating we made it, and modified/customized for THAT project. If custom calls in someone other than us to do some work for him. Perhaps want this other guy to modify the routine, add to it, or whatever. That guy can take our source code and use it for THAT customer all he wants. It belongs to customer. Have at it. We have a statement in the comments, however, that indicates he's to leave our name and original creator intact. Can add some comments to say, "Modified by:" and giving his own name and date it was done. That's fine.

Now do we go around looking over people's shoulders to see if this guy is using exactly the same routine to accomplish something? Nope.

We just make every effort to do what we do BETTER than the other guy.

[MatrixTransform]

You can have it and the controller it road in on for $100 + shipping! Act now and I'll toss in the expansion modules and a 500' of CAT4 at no added cost. Everything you need to recreate the original masterpiece.

I programmed my first DX about 20 years ago. yep. 20!

Anyway, thanks for the offer, but I already got a box full of them in the graveyard at the back of the factory. We are using them to build a staircase so that I can reach the top shelf where we keep all the Barber Colman stuff.

I cant believe JCI still list them (wont even mention the list price) ... whats more we recently replaced some NCMs with a few JACEs and concurrently the local branch was STILL installing a DX in an adjacent building!!

For a while here JCI were claiming ip/copyright in code on their jobs. I think they've stopped doing it now...or maybe its just because working with MSEA needs a pentagram and 3 voodoo dolls to do anything with it. Makes it almost impossible to find what is programmed. who knows what's actually in there.

open systems heh?