SEER Rating vs ARI Certificate/Rating

[LafayetteLA]

I'd like to know what is the difference betwen SEER rating and ARI Certificate?

@energy_rater_la: I thought I'd ask this question on the forum, so the response is archived. You have been wonderful in replying to my mails. But having responses on the forum would help someone else looking for an answer.

Why I ask this question? I asked my hvac dealer for ARI Certificate for the system, and he got back with the SEER rating. Here is his exact response:

> There is no ARI certificate to send just the ratings as they are listed on the web site. All equipment regardless of who made it is measured and rated using the same ARI criteria. Your system is show to have a Seer of 13 and a capacity of 42,000 at ARI conditions.

I did find "ARI Tables" published by Louisiana DNR.

http://dnr.louisiana.gov/assets/TAD/...a/tbl-a345.htm

[beenthere]

Your dealer is either blowing smoke. Or doesn't know what he is talking about.

No AHRI cert, then it doesn't reach the efficiency rating.

Post all of the model numbers of your equipment.

[catmanacman]

Not being mean but im curios is he a reputable company or is it a low bid side jobber

[energy_rater_La]

4TTB3042D1000CA

TEM3A0C42S41SAA

I'm speachless.

[LafayetteLA]

4TTB3042D1000CA

TEM3A0C42S41SAA

I'm speachless.

Thanks @energy_rater_la -- You are my witness here.

@catmancman - I didn't cut corners in picking the dealer. It's the most reputable company in my town. So I shudder to think what others would have done.

Since the installation, their crew have visited three times, including with their top honchos -- Installation manager, service manager, NATE certified auditor.

This all started after I had found a one big glaring error in the installation -- a 8" x 20" cutout in my attic left over from previous plenum. The guys try to blow me away saying "some people like it that way." I know I am naive. But I didn't like being considered stupid. I started Googling, and reached this forum. Thanks to all I could learned from the folks on this forum, I went back to the company with a long list of problems.

They said they got it all fixed after three visits.

I wasn't sure. Thankfully energy_rater_la accepted to take a look. And she found a long laundry list of issues by just walking through the attic, and still more after doing a blower test.

What I have in this note is just the tip of the iceberg?

I do appreciate the willingness of all the folks on this list to share their expertise. Its much appreciated.

LafayetteLA

[beenthere]

4TTB3042D1000CA

TEM3A0C42S41SAA

I'm speachless.

At the moment, I can't pull up anything on a 4TTB3042

[duckman06]

5918069: AHRI #

4TTB3042D1000A: A/C

TEM3A0C42S41+TDR: AIR HANDLER

1250: cfm

42000: total capacity

30800: sensible capacity

3.76: KW

13.00: SEER

11.00: EER


Here is what I pulled from Trane comfortsite on the unit. So there is a Ahri # and the system is (3.5) ton with SEER rating of 13.

[beenthere]

Ok with the ref number it comes up.

Excuse the misspelling please.

[GT1980]

Also you will find "in compliance with ENERGY STAR ratings, affirmed by Manufacturers"
without an ahri rating as a third party overturned blue print engineering statements such as "all equipment shall be third pary rated" in Ohio, especially, as for this single reason:

If it does not meet Energy Star compliance as a unit or system in review, it will be replaced by the manufacturer at their expense.
Fla Ht pump found this out quite a few years ago.

After a first year of that compliance statement, then unrated 2008, now RATED for the first time by ETL Labs for Energy Star as having now a third party rating 3/2013, Hydro-Temp IS certified, just not AHRI, technically a for-profit-third-party.
That is why for some shopping comparisons anyone can get hold of the "AHRI RAW DATA" on systems that have submitted to them for some testing results. IE the Water Furnace and Hydro-Temp over 41 EER's in low to medium speed testing; and whereas Energy Star rated both above EER's of 30, in full highest stage of the V-Star and WF 7 VFD- inverter compressor series.

see signature link to certified, rated, just not AHRI among some manufacturers

I may have worded a bit differently than others may find needs to be stated, but the Energy Star with ETL third-party leading to current compliance and yielding certificates seems enough to enter as any alternate or lead OEM system for engineering publicly and receiving ALL utility company rebates, ultimately has been awarded to systems of just a compliance, before and still to date without any AHRI as the only third party require certification of compliance to EnergyStar(tm)/.

[second opinion]

This thread is just another example for consumers struggling to obtain a competent company or individual to provide them service in this industry.

@catmancman - I didn't cut corners in picking the dealer. It's the most reputable company in my town. So I shudder to think what others would have done.

Since the installation, their crew have visited three times, including with their top honchos -- Installation manager, service manager, NATE certified auditor.

I do not agree with statements made in this industry that "the lowest price is always wrong, and you get what you pay for".

I can show you companies throughout the country that are large, well advertised, and the most expensive that are incompetent at the discipline they are representing.
And I have also seen smaller companies that are quite competent at what they do as far as technical knowledge for the discipline they represent and charge less money.

Until the consumer becomes educated enough through websites such as this one and know what to expect and require from a contractor this industry will continue to have a bad reputation.

There are good companies both small and large in this industry, unfortunately for the consumer and the companies that are doing it right, the bad far out-way the the good ones.

[energy_rater_La]

This thread is just another example for consumers struggling to obtain a competent company or individual to provide them service in this industry.

@catmancman - I didn't cut corners in picking the dealer. It's the most reputable company in my town. So I shudder to think what others would have done.

Since the installation, their crew have visited three times, including with their top honchos -- Installation manager, service manager, NATE certified auditor.

I do not agree with statements made in this industry that "the lowest price is always wrong, and you get what you pay for".

I can show you companies throughout the country that are large, well advertised, and the most expensive that are incompetent at the discipline they are representing.
And I have also seen smaller companies that are quite competent at what they do as far as technical knowledge for the discipline they represent and charge less money.

Until the consumer becomes educated enough through websites such as this one and know what to expect and require from a contractor this industry will continue to have a bad reputation.

There are good companies both small and large in this industry, unfortunately for the consumer and the companies that are doing it right, the bad far out-way the the good ones.

I agree with OP that he picked one of the largest, most advertised, most trucks on the road, well established
decades in the business..companies for his install.

this company is one of the few that provides continuing education for its workers in winter when business is slow.
this company comes to the trade school to meet the best of the students in the hvac courses to hire for their company.

upon discovery of things not seeming correct to the homeower, the company made several
trips to make things right. in allowing the company to correct their mistakes..it was a very fair move
on the OP's part.
I think the homeowner has been more than patient, and very fair in
his dealings with this company.

if I had to list this company on bid scale, they would be top of the scale, far away from
low bid, and above even mid range. only one company I know of that charges higher prices.

so OP, care to share the findings of the blower door test (xxxcfm @50 pa) & duct leakage amounts?
I think the pros here would be amazed at what we found.

[second opinion]

Most companies that advertise continuing education for there employees stems around marketing and sales, and not technical proficiency of the discipline that they represent.

A lot of this type of mentality can be pointed back to the product manufacture for blame. It is all about moving the product and keeping the investors stock profit margin up.


If I am not mistaken, Carrier is the only manufacturer that requires a percentage of the technicians to be qualified if you are listed as a FAD dealer "Factory Authorized Dealer" and that criteria is lax to say the least.

The laundry list that you found should have been found and addressed by the contractor if they where technically proficient at what they where hired to do.

[LafayetteLA]

diagnostic report 10-7-2013-anon.pdf

Here is report on inspection and air leakage test of my installation done by energy_rater_la.

NOTE -- This was after THREE attempts by the company to do it right.
Trip 1: Installation
Trip 2: Fix major issues I could identify after three days of Googling
Trip 3: Because they still left issues that I could notice with my eyes

So I don't feel like being as gracious to the vendor as energy_rater_la. Yup, the duct leakage is low. But that's after three attempts, and the ducts are still not done right, as stated in this report.

Anyway, that discussion belongs in the Wall of Shame.

In the next posting I will also upload the Load calculation.

[LafayetteLA]

2013-10-ac-load-calculations-anon.pdf

Here is Load J calculation. This was done TODAY. I am told that the sales rep did not retain the calculation after giving me the quotation. So he had to visit again to calculate.

If you are wondering, isn't that putting the cart before the horse...

Yes, it is. The fault starts with me. I didn't look up BBB before calling this company. Turns out its not a member of BBB. I checked, when I figured I had a problem. My next option was to turn to Chase Visa, my credit card company.

Given that the installation still has such glaring problems AFTER personal audits by installation manager, service manager, and a NATE certified senior personnel, I am tempted to believe their being nice to me has more to do with my initiating dispute with Visa.

LafayetteLA

[energy_rater_La]

the load calc is a one page report with little specifics.
I'm not familiar with this format.
prefer whole house calcs with room by room design.
so maybe some of y'all are more familiar with this than I.
if so, please chime in.

the company sent someone out to do measurements
for a load calc post install.
the company said they do manual J for every install.
just did not say some are post install.

sq ft of house has increased by 53 sq ft.
could be an easily made mistake in field measurements.

furnace type is listed for a gas 80% afue, but what is installed is ahu with heat strips
no input, no output, no Kw size given
no efficiency listed for a/c. no sensible, no latent
no static pressure

Design:
outside db heating 32 cooling 97
inside db heating 68 cooling 72

indoor dry bulb for cooling should be 78, not 72
as this homeowner is one of the rare people who actually sets tstat on 78
or there about. IMO this is a fudge factor.

equipment @ 1.02 RSM which increases the cooling load
from 22727 to 23249 this last number has sensible written next to it.
not sure what RSM means...anyone?

totals: Btu 25,917 heating load and
23249 sensible + 5919 latent = 29,168 cooling load

2.5 ton system...according to their own load calc.

but 3.5 ton system was installed.

I'd like to see them change the unit to a 2.5 ton heat pump
14SEER Energy Star rated with 7.5 kw heat & variable speed air handler unit.
this was my recommendation to the homeowner.

If LafayetteLa posts the load calc, please look it over & add
any comments. I'd really like to see the homeowner get a
better unit, that is sized correctly for his house.

the house is tight 765 cfm 50 for 1650sq ft liv

my concern is that that the unit will short cycle & not dehumidify.
waiting too long to resolve sizing issues would not be in the
OP's best interest...IMO

tia!

[jimj]

Here ya go. I would say its oversized!

[jimj]

I sure would like to see the whole Manual J! This was done with J7 ( not that that's the end of the world) and there is no credit for the tight home that you have. And yes there is NO REASON to have designed around 72* IDDB for summer when this customer sets to 78* ( I would have designed for 75*).

[LafayetteLA]

Thanks, JimJ for finding the info about my unit from Trane. I am trying to learn about ARI Ratings now, and I found this page. I used the ARIRef in your document to search some more. Here are more links (for my own future reference).

http://www.trane.com/Commercial/Prod...ARIREF=5918069
http://www.trane.com/Commercial/Prod...del=4TTB3042D1

I can see that ARI Rating means something different (or more) than SEER. I still need to learn what all those numbers mean. But this gives me something more to chew.

[LafayetteLA]

I see that some of the load form may have had some more useful information that I had blanked out in order to anonymize the vendor and me.

FWIW, here is the info.
Top header says : Writghtsoft - Load Short Form; Entire House
Bottom signature line says: Wrightsoft, Right-Suite (R) Universal 2013 13.0.01 RSU06894

Calc - MJ7, Front Door faces: N

[toocoolforschool]

Be wary of any stranger wearing new clothes.
I mean they couldn't even hang the ducts, that is just lame brained.