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  1. #1314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    You make good points. We complain about the Canadian healthcare system that makes them wait for elective, non-emergency surgeries like a knee replacement. Here, we demand that our insurance company pay triple for it and get it done tomorrow. Going in to get pimples popped is a problem but please explain why our doctors charge three to four times that of single payer countries? Then please comment on Mikey's very typical situation with his father. Then, if you would, are you saying single payer is synonymous with free?
    First off, single payer is not free however it would be precised as being free. People do not see how much they pay in income tax but you always hear them complain about property taxes and such because they see a bill for that whereas income tax comes out of the check so it is never really seen, similar to healthcare where most people don't realize what it actually costs them.

    Second, human nature it to take advantage of opportunity, especially if it is perceived as being free or cheap. This is the situation that would be set up with single payer. People would not pay attention to the money coming out of their check so they would make more Dr visits which would overload the system or increase costs due to increased manpower and space to handle the load.

    Now as far as what the Dr and facilities charge which I know you are big on. What is the difference between some Dr. charging an arm and a leg for their services or a HVAC company charging 100 x cost for a capacitor? As competitors seeing other competitors getting huge paydays they jump on the band wagon and increase prices also. Soon either some companies fail or everyone is getting huge paydays as the customer gets use to paying for the service. Insurance companies are like the home warranty companies for HVAC. They isolate the homeowner from the actual cost and cause the HVAC company to inflate prices to cover the added cost the HW Co bring to the table.

    Now to PHM's situation. It sounds very similar to an HVAC company that comes in and sells you stuff you don't really need under the guise of necessity, or the mechanic shop that sells you multiple repairs on a car that really only needs an air filter, or the window company that sells windows that fall apart and leak after a few years, doesn't seal around them properly, yet charges the big bucks (not implying you but I bet you know some). The reality is that there are unscrupulous people/companies in every industry. Some of them we let go others we complain about till the cows come home, and sometimes something happens that puts one in the spotlight that had been going on for decades, which I think is what has happened with health care because of ACA.

  2. #1315
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    Quote Originally Posted by BNME8EZ View Post
    First off, single payer is not free however it would be precised as being free. People do not see how much they pay in income tax but you always hear them complain about property taxes and such because they see a bill for that whereas income tax comes out of the check so it is never really seen, similar to healthcare where most people don't realize what it actually costs them.
    Hmmm, maybe that is why I ***** so much about the cost because I write a $1,200 check every month for health insurance. I also just wrote a $15,000 check to the IRS.

    Second, human nature it to take advantage of opportunity, especially if it is perceived as being free or cheap. This is the situation that would be set up with single payer. People would not pay attention to the money coming out of their check so they would make more Dr visits which would overload the system or increase costs due to increased manpower and space to handle the load.
    Single payer does not have to be zero deductible which would be no out of pocket. It could easily be set up on an individual basis - zero, $2,000 and $5,000 deductibles. That way if you want to go see the doctor to ‘pop pimples’ for free, you’d pay dearly for it.

    Now as far as what the Dr and facilities charge which I know you are big on. What is the difference between some Dr. charging an arm and a leg for their services or a HVAC company charging 100 x cost for a capacitor? As competitors seeing other competitors getting huge paydays they jump on the band wagon and increase prices also. Soon either some companies fail or everyone is getting huge paydays as the customer gets use to paying for the service. Insurance companies are like the home warranty companies for HVAC. They isolate the homeowner from the actual cost and cause the HVAC company to inflate prices to cover the added cost the HW Co bring to the table.
    People pay out of pocket for HVAC and cell phones. Nothing life threatening with those services. However healthcare, and the huge and largely fraudulent bill you get for hospital care, is paid for by an insurance company. Yes, we are isolated from paying it, so we don’t care if half of it is fake. Insurance companies also don’t seem to care. But who does care is Medicare. They are the only ones that put their foot down and trim all that crap out. That is why doctors don’t like them. That, along with red tape.

    Now to PHM's situation. It sounds very similar to an HVAC company that comes in and sells you stuff you don't really need under the guise of necessity, or the mechanic shop that sells you multiple repairs on a car that really only needs an air filter, or the window company that sells windows that fall apart and leak after a few years, doesn't seal around them properly, yet charges the big bucks (not implying you but I bet you know some). The reality is that there are unscrupulous people/companies in every industry. Some of them we let go others we complain about till the cows come home, and sometimes something happens that puts one in the spotlight that had been going on for decades, which I think is what has happened with health care because of ACA.
    The difference is that contractors and auto repair are publicly securitized. Those corrupt folks are spoken about constantly. We shop them and are aware of them. When are we told that doctors and hospitals are ripping us off and we should fight these after-the-fact fake charges? We aren’t. We hold these doctors up on pedestals when they are hugely complicit in this fraudulent overcharging. My point; publicly out them the same as we do with contractors and auto mechanics. And I don’t just mean once a month on 60 Minutes. I'd like to see the health insurance companies commit mutiny on the hospitals. Stop paying them one red cent until they all agree on the Medicare pricing schedule.

    Single payer can be what we want it to be. What we need for starters is for Medicare to estimate the cost they would charge a healthy 30 year old, his wife and two kids for a $2,000 deductible plan. Then take it from there. No commitment, just information. Wouldn’t you be curious?

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  4. #1316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    I write a $1,200 check every month for health insurance.
    Madness. I don't think I pay that a month in taxes what does a $1200/month plan cover?

  5. #1317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    I don't see cell phones as being that inexpensive. A flip phone with a camera and texting ability is about $30 retail. Add a bigger screen and a GPS (an it isn't really a GPS) and the price skyrockets to $600-$800. Above that, every single person has one and replaces it about every two years. That is volume that tech builders have never seen before. The mark-up is so high that the phone companies are now selling phones over selling plans. The price is so high that they discourage buying the phone outright by offering no money down and no interest, with no break on paying cash. The phone manufacturers are in cahoots with the wireless carriers and will not undercut the inflated $800 price tag. On top of that they sell bs insurance with a high deductible.

    So I see the cost of a cellphone as a ripoff. Those things aren't worth more than $200. The cell industry is exploiting our addiction to their product and technology just like the health insurance companies are exploiting our need for their product. They know they have us by the short hairs and they are taking us for a ride. Why would they buy back your old, worthless phone? Because what they are selling you is not worth the $800 they suckered you into paying. Funny, the guy who says they are a good deal won't pay the price for them. He buys his on Craig's List. What's that lizard called again?

    The marketing of a $800 cell phone cannot be compared to the marketing of a $100,000 hip replacement that we need a corrupt insurance company to pay for. As Glenn would say….Geeeeeez, give us a break! These disgusting corp coddlers don't even know when we are being bent over a log, because they aren't paying full price for health insurance or cell phones.
    I bought one year old Note 4 for $120.

    That is dirt cheap.

    Good thing so many people are buying phones and have the means to do so. Good thing the guy that sold me his 1 year old Note 4 had the means, the opportunity and the desire to buy a Note 5 so I could take advantage of that very robust consumer driven free market and buy a 1 year old $800 phone for $120.

    See how this works?

    Nah, you are clueless.

  6. #1318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sooty View Post
    Madness. I don't think I pay that a month in taxes what does a $1200/month plan cover?
    It covers the cost of a crazy capitalistic system where American Democrats are able to extort, guilt, force, buy power and control with their corporate partners who are doing the same.

    Like I've said a million times, what we have on America is the worst possible choice of the three main choices.

    And by the way, brian pays $1200 and thinks guys like me are getting some mythical huge break by having employer based insurance. My insurance costs me $1000 a month plus a $5k deductible.

    brian drones on and on about how unfair it is because we get the sweet end of the crap deal. It's nothing even close to what he says.

  7. #1319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    It covers the cost of a crazy capitalistic system where American Democrats are able to extort, guilt, force, buy power and control with their corporate partners who are doing the same.

    Like I've said a million times, what we have on America is the worst possible choice of the three main choices.

    And by the way, brian pays $1200 and thinks guys like me are getting some mythical huge break by having employer based insurance. My insurance costs me $1000 a month plus a $5k deductible.

    brian drones on and on about how unfair it is because we get the sweet end of the crap deal. It's nothing even close to what he says.
    I'm wondering what the going rate is for an emergency extraction of a stick from a butt? Condescension and constant scapegoating do not solidify an argument. Quite the contrary. When you are not seething with rage at 'leftist pukes' and 'extortionist Democrats', you actually make a lot of good points.

  8. #1320
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMasticator View Post
    I'm wondering what the going rate is for an emergency extraction of a stick from a butt? Condescension and constant scapegoating do not solidify an argument. Quite the contrary. When you are not seething with rage at 'leftist pukes' and 'extortionist Democrats', you actually make a lot of good points.
    That is only if you believe them. Last week his insurance cost him $800/mo. A year ago it was $300/mo. Next week it will be $1,500/mo with a $10,000 deductible.

    Everything that comes out of his mouth is BS. If he paid $1,000 and his employer paid $1,000, it would not be a crappy $5,000 deductible plan. I know corporate plans and I know the individual market. Nothing he says makes sense.

    Now brace yourself for the vitriol from the other side of his mouth.

  9. #1321
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMasticator View Post
    I'm wondering what the going rate is for an emergency extraction of a stick from a butt? Condescension and constant scapegoating do not solidify an argument. Quite the contrary. When you are not seething with rage at 'leftist pukes' and 'extortionist Democrats', you actually make a lot of good points.
    I made a couple good points. Not sure why you didn't notice them.

    I do understand how brian didn't though.
    “Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.”
    -Possibly said by Thomas Jefferson(but true even if he didn't)


    “What one generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace.”
    ― Definitely said by John Wesley


    "One out of 3 Democrat voters is just as stupid as the other two"
    -Said by me

  10. #1322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    That is only if you believe them. Last week his insurance cost him $800/mo. A year ago it was $300/mo. Next week it will be $1,500/mo with a $10,000 deductible.

    Everything that comes out of his mouth is BS. If he paid $1,000 and his employer paid $1,000, it would not be a crappy $5,000 deductible plan. I know corporate plans and I know the individual market. Nothing he says makes sense.

    Now brace yourself for the vitriol from the other side of his mouth.
    Out of my paycheck directly is $350 a month. It went up from $300 this year. My boss pays close to $700 per month. That's $1000.

    I didn't say or imply that I paid $1000 and my boss paid $1000. But any thinking man with any common sense would recognize that the $700 he pays is my money.

    My deductible has always been $5k.

    I don't lie brian. That's your thing.

    When are you ever going to learn? You are always wrong.

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