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  1. #1288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    No Space, I don't think it "beats" you. I think it does not interest you or anyone else who complains about our healthcare crisis. You, others, our media and politicians seem to focus on their nemesis ACA but fail to ask themselves why a 'Toyota Corolla" in Canada costs $20,000 and in this country it costs $100,000. It's obvious where the problem originates.

    Ya, you are really going to solve something by focussing on Obamacare. But keep posting those links.
    Simple reason why. Even a caveman can figure it out.

    You either need a full 100% consumer driven market or single payer. The first being by far the one that will keep quality high and prices low.

    And if you are going to do the single payer thing(unfortunately) it should be handled at the state level.

    The problem is now we have this hybrid system where the worst of the worst on both sides call the shots. They are fully protected and funded by each other and we are 100% powerless.

    And by the way, Canada and other countries benefit from out innovation. Nearly 60% of all medical advances and medication. The next closest country is about 15% if memory serves. If you make America single payer we would fall in line with other countries lack of innovation and medical advances. And before some of the more illogical on ARP go off half cocked about "Yeah because they are gouging and raking in money and we pay for it." In a consumer driven market these advances still happen along with consumer forces that force prices to stay low. Look no further than the high-powered computer in your pocket to see what I'm talking about. Amazing invention and low prices after government got out of telecom.

  2. #1289
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    My thought with direct consumer paid healthcare is that something like Walmart will drive out all competency by driving down prices and most people will end up being worked on by the equivalent of a Walmart Greeter. Not the wealthy of course - they will always hire the best no matter where in the world they are.

    What will stop that from happening for regular people? What exactly will keep the quality high?

    PHM
    -------



    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    Simple reason why. Even a caveman can figure it out.

    You either need a full 100% consumer driven market or single payer. The first being by far the one that will keep quality high and prices low.

    And if you are going to do the single payer thing(unfortunately) it should be handled at the state level.

    The problem is now we have this hybrid system where the worst of the worst on both sides call the shots. They are fully protected and funded by each other and we are 100% powerless.

    And by the way, Canada and other countries benefit from out innovation. Nearly 60% of all medical advances and medication. The next closest country is about 15% if memory serves. If you make America single payer we would fall in line with other countries lack of innovation and medical advances. And before some of the more illogical on ARP go off half cocked about "Yeah because they are gouging and raking in money and we pay for it." In a consumer driven market these advances still happen along with consumer forces that force prices to stay low. Look no further than the high-powered computer in your pocket to see what I'm talking about. Amazing invention and low prices after government got out of telecom.
    PHM
    --------
    The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking.

  3. #1290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poodle Head Mikey View Post
    My thought with direct consumer paid healthcare is that something like Walmart will drive out all competency by driving down prices and most people will end up being worked on by the equivalent of a Walmart Greeter. Not the wealthy of course - they will always hire the best no matter where in the world they are.

    What will stop that from happening for regular people? What exactly will keep the quality high?

    PHM
    -------
    Even if you could get a $100,000 hip replacement down to $25,000, it still takes an insurance policy to pay for it. Why would a patient care whether a procedure like that costs $25K or $100K when everything over say $10K deductible is covered. What will encourage the intense shopping and negotiating? The free market has never worked in healthcare because of the costs.

    Look to what is already working in this country with Medicare and all other civilized nations…single payer. Oh, and stop looking to politicians for the answers. They are impotent.

  4. #1291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poodle Head Mikey View Post
    My thought with direct consumer paid healthcare is that something like Walmart will drive out all competency by driving down prices and most people will end up being worked on by the equivalent of a Walmart Greeter. Not the wealthy of course - they will always hire the best no matter where in the world they are.

    What will stop that from happening for regular people? What exactly will keep the quality high?

    PHM
    -------
    I find much of Walmart stuff to be just fine and it's cheap. If I don't want to spend $700 on a low end 65" TV I can go to Best buy and buy a $3600 65" OLED. My choice. Both are great. One is better.

    And relatively speaking the $3600 65" OLED is a bargain compared to what TVs cost 30 years ago. And the $700 is also far superior. So even the high end top of the line today is cheaper after a few decades of free market advancing technology while keeping prices in check.

    Imagine what at TV would be if government controlled that market

    “Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.”
    -Possibly said by Thomas Jefferson(but true even if he didn't)


    “What one generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace.”
    ― Definitely said by John Wesley


    "One out of 3 Democrat voters is just as stupid as the other two"
    -Said by me

  5. #1292
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    All should have health care. Paid indirectly by all.

    I want all to be healthy, for I depend on all to survive.

    If you think we can survive without being healthy otherwise, let me know.

    Anything else is plain selfishness.

    Roy
    A man is no less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years.
    Lysander Spooner

  6. Likes MadMasticator liked this post
  7. #1293
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    Quote Originally Posted by royc View Post
    All should have health care. Paid indirectly by all.

    I want all to be healthy, for I depend on all to survive.

    If you think we can survive without being healthy otherwise, let me know.

    Anything else is plain selfishness.

    Roy
    Yep, we should pay for our healthcare the same as we pay for our wars.

  8. #1294
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    How is that? By sacrificing our best & brightest? Well; so long as they aren't well funded enough to avoid serving. That is the biggest price we pay for our wars.

    PHM
    -------




    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    Yep, we should pay for our healthcare the same as we pay for our wars.
    PHM
    --------
    The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking.

  9. #1295
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    I guess you are easier to please than I am. Or maybe you can't remember buying a quality product. Walmart appliances, and clothing, has been some of the worse I have ever purchased inside the US. And it's been that: "Always the Low Price; Always!" mindset which has created it.

    Yep; that sure is what I want: Healthcare from the Lowest Bidder. That concept sure has improved building and construction quality, hasn't it?

    PHM
    --------




    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    I find much of Walmart stuff to be just fine and it's cheap. If I don't want to spend $700 on a low end 65" TV I can go to Best buy and buy a $3600 65" OLED. My choice. Both are great. One is better.

    And relatively speaking the $3600 65" OLED is a bargain compared to what TVs cost 30 years ago. And the $700 is also far superior. So even the high end top of the line today is cheaper after a few decades of free market advancing technology while keeping prices in check.

    Imagine what at TV would be if government controlled that market

    PHM
    --------
    The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking.

  10. #1296
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    Quote Originally Posted by royc View Post
    All should have health care. Paid indirectly by all.

    I want all to be healthy, for I depend on all to survive.

    If you think we can survive without being healthy otherwise, let me know.

    Anything else is plain selfishness.

    Roy
    With all due respect there Roy I disagree. Some folks' life style leads them to depend on health care early on.

    Gays & drug addicts come to mind here. We shouldn't have to pay for their illnesses. Thank you, thank you very much.

  11. #1297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poodle Head Mikey View Post
    How is that? By sacrificing our best & brightest? Well; so long as they aren't well funded enough to avoid serving. That is the biggest price we pay for our wars.

    PHM
    -------
    I meant monetarily paid for.

    As for loss of life, I'd imagine we suffer more, lose more lives and bankrupt more people with our current healthcare mess than are ever lost in our wars.

  12. #1298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    Simple reason why. Even a caveman can figure it out.

    You either need a full 100% consumer driven market or single payer. The first being by far the one that will keep quality high and prices low.

    And if you are going to do the single payer thing(unfortunately) it should be handled at the state level.

    The problem is now we have this hybrid system where the worst of the worst on both sides call the shots. They are fully protected and funded by each other and we are 100% powerless.

    And by the way, Canada and other countries benefit from out innovation. Nearly 60% of all medical advances and medication. The next closest country is about 15% if memory serves. If you make America single payer we would fall in line with other countries lack of innovation and medical advances. And before some of the more illogical on ARP go off half cocked about "Yeah because they are gouging and raking in money and we pay for it." In a consumer driven market these advances still happen along with consumer forces that force prices to stay low. Look no further than the high-powered computer in your pocket to see what I'm talking about. Amazing invention and low prices after government got out of telecom.
    In large part, these high-powered devices are so dang cheap because they're made abroad where the labor costs are extremely low. Yes, technological innovations also contribute to lower prices, but please don't just gloss over the issue of labor costs. To do so, is disingenuous.

  13. #1299
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennac View Post
    With all due respect there Roy I disagree. Some folks' life style leads them to depend on health care early on.

    Gays & drug addicts come to mind here. We shouldn't have to pay for their illnesses. Thank you, thank you very much.
    Gay's don't have a choice for they are born that way, drug addicts get that way in all kinds of ways, that doesn't mean we should not help them to become viable again.

    Many war veterans become addicted, for reasons I should not have to explain to you.

    But if you don't care, there is very little I can do about it.

    I'm just telling you that we must care, otherwise we will parish.

    Roy
    A man is no less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years.
    Lysander Spooner

  14. #1300
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMasticator View Post
    In large part, these high-powered devices are so dang cheap because they're made abroad where the labor costs are extremely low. Yes, technological innovations also contribute to lower prices, but please don't just gloss over the issue of labor costs. To do so, is disingenuous.
    This is a short sighted shallow and biased comment and maybe I'll get to it later. It's very much a brian GC way of thinking and beneath you, MM. I'm busy now, but we'll chat later.

    And its also illustrative your

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