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  1. #40
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Under the sea
    Posts
    235
    Like I said "Real Control guys aren't made.... Their born that way" this thread is really starting to show the personality traits the wanabes would like to have.

    You want my bosses number, sure thing here it is. I already know he is gonna listen and act like I am in big trouble then call me and ask me what crawled up that guys butt? When you call a controls techs boss you might as well be calling his drinking buddy because they are so few in the industry they tend to start relying on each other to get the jobs done.
    I was in a meeting once with a Chief Domestic Engineer (Janitor) that had just been promoted to Chief Building Engineer. He asked me how the new DDC system his boss was buying would operate. I told him the mouse connected to the PC would allow him to override the outdoor lighting time-clock (which was way to complicated for them anyway). He said "mouse !! what mouse!!" and picked up the phone and asked the new Chief Domestic Engineer (who recently got promoted from assistant janitor) to order some more mouse traps. No need to tell you how that job went, as the real control guys already know.

    "simple-green" isn't that the stuff a Chief Domestic Engineer uses daily for toilet maintenance? Just wondering.
    In case of malfunction-Reconnect brain BEFORE starting mouth.

  2. #41
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Baton Rouge, Louisiana
    Posts
    3,949
    Quote Originally Posted by XcelTech View Post
    With Control Techs you catch more flies with honey then vinegar. Or beer we like beer!
    Only problem is we pour the salt in our eyes, eat the rind of the lime, pour out the beer and eat the bottle............................................ ............................

    CAUSE WE CAN
    Quote Originally Posted by MatrixTransform View Post
    very soon it is you that will be pwned

  3. #42
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Baton Rouge, LA
    Posts
    1,114
    Quote Originally Posted by joey791 View Post
    Only problem is we pour the salt in our eyes, eat the rind of the lime, pour out the beer and eat the bottle............................................ ............................

    CAUSE WE CAN

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
    If you're too "open" minded, your brains will fall out.
    Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,382
    Quote Originally Posted by simplegreen View Post
    wont tell you a dam thing ....bog you down in semantics,
    Well, the truth is that sometimes the customer asks specific questions and I have trouble figuring out a way to answer those, in a way the customer will understand. I'm not trying to be a snot or wise-ass ... it's just a plain simple fact that sometimes answers as to what is wrong with a controls problem involves talking about things that most folks not in the controls business have no CLUE about whatsoever. Don't even know such concepts exist, much less what the technical terms mean.

    This happens ALL of the time.

    I know that sometimes I give the customer a concise, no BS, accurate answer ... and he/she/they think I'm playing games with them and blowing smoke up their a**es. And I'm not.

    So sometimes I AM a bit evasive in my answer. Like, "Well, some of the adjustments are wrong." and don't explain anything more.

    Other times I just want whomever to go away, because at the moment I'm still trying to figure out what the REAL answer is, and that is not always that easy to figure out.

    i.e. Just recently. Customer was having some trouble with the operation of some equipment. The REAL answer as to what was wrong? In the end it came down to a few things. (1) Customer really ought to actually do proper maintenance on his equipment, or hire someone who knows what he's doing to do so. (2) Customer didn't REALLY understand how the hardware worked, was supposed to work, in the first place, and has mistaken ideas about basic principles ... probably should do some homework about how various HVAC systems work and why/how various sequences of operation are implemented. (3) Someone in the customer organization, or someone hired by them, in the past had "solved" this or that malfunction complaint ... by using manual overrides, rewiring to disable or bypass stuff, etc. (4) Some of the issues being blamed on the BAS controls ... was really an issue that'd only be solved by HIRING A BALANCER and having him do his thing. Customer organization NEVER brought in a Balancer. Ever. (5) AND ... truth to tell, the folks who did the original controls job had done some shoddy, half-a**ed work. Plain and simple. On top of which, they'd not left behind proper As-Builts, or written sequences of operation, etc. So among other issues customer THOUGHT certain things in the control system worked this or that way ... and was mistaken.

    Now did I tell the Chief of Maint for the customer organization all of this, every detail. Nope, I just scratched my head, pleaded he have patience with an aging fellow (me) who is kinda slow moving and none too quick mentally. Said I was still figuring it out myself. I sure didn't want to argue with the fellow ... one of the things he'd told me right off was that he knew more about his building, and everything in it, than anyone else. He'd even assured me that if I had trouble figuring anything out, to just ask him.

    Chuckle, really? But of course I just said, "Thanks, I will."

    So what was supposed to be perhaps a couple hours worth of service call, ended up being most of a week. A significant amount of time being spent by me massaging his ego a bit, while at the same time educating him a bit better about things he'd thought he already knew all about. I wanted him on my side. So some things I fed him in such a way as to let him convince himself that it'd been his own idea(s). And there were quite a number of things hardware wise that I corrected/fixed without mentioning each specifically. Other items, which were SUPPOSED to be wired so-and-such, but which were not, I corrected. And several custom programs for freely programmable controllers, and firmware configurations for ASC's, I tweaked or modified/added to. Including some control algorithms which were faulty or made no sense. And fixed some bogus stuff in his front end.

    So in the end, his system WAS working as it was supposed to all along. With the exception of some items, I gave him a list of those. Including a STRONG suggestion they spring for the bucks to call in a Balancer. I PROVED to him, by demonstration, show and tell, that several of his AHU's weren't moving the anywhere near the amount of air they were supposed to be moving. That about 1/3 of his VAV's were reporting bogus CFMs, etc. Also gave him a list of hardware issues that were other people's problem. I sure as heck wasn't gonna clean coils for him, replace a couple of elec motors and a couple other motor starters. All of which, BTW, he'd been blaming on the controls system.

    Quote Originally Posted by simplegreen View Post
    oh btw allways on the phone again servicing other accounts
    Yep, I've seen this, more times than I can count. I personally avoid doing such things. Oh, I'll take a call here and there. But if it gets to be too much, I tell whomever to go away, I'm busy with a current job. I'll call em back later when I'm done with what I'm doing, or after hours, or whatever.

    Yep, I've even told PM's, service call dispatchers, some of our upper management people, etc this. In the past. They all know better now. They know I can be a grouchy and gruff SOB. And telling me things like, "Your job could be on the line." has less than no effect. If its a matter that I think truly important enough for me to attend to it now, right now. I'll do so on my own, because its the right thing. Trying to MAKE me do something right now when I'm not convinced its that darn important ... is pretty much a waste of time.

    When I'm on a job site, I make every attempt to give THAT customer my full, undivided attention.

    Not that I get that darn many calls about something wrong elsewhere. Unless it was a job done by someone else. I do make mistakes. But they're pretty darn infrequent. And what mistakes I do make, tend to be minor things. Not an issue that constitutes an emergency.

    Quote Originally Posted by simplegreen View Post
    wheres the work ? see heres the thing .. the way you got to handle a snot like that is be very agressive with them ...right from the start
    You know, I actually agree with much of what you've said and can understand some of the angst you feel. I've personally seen controls folks who act precisely as you describe.

    But try to get aggressive with me? That may well work with some youngster.

    But with some folks, including me, that might not be the best approach.

    Getting aggressive with me MIGHT, on a bad day for me, just cause me to come back at you ... even more aggressively. But that's a very seldom event.

    More likely I'll just listen attentively ... or at least look like I am ... while I'm actually bored to tears ... and probably wondering if you know even a tenth of what you obviously think you do. Most of the overly aggressive loud mouths I've run into in my life use that tactic because its all they've got. Haven't got the knowledge or mental ability to use a more constructive approach. I tend to have patience with such folks. Pretty much like dealing with a child who doesn't yet know any better.

    Just as long as the aggressive sort doesn't actually touch me ... or try to do so. That elicits a whole different response, an unpleasant one.

    But I do understand that sometimes customers, and other observers watching me, sometimes think I'm not doing much. Happened yesterday. I was on a job site, a last minute affair. Remodel of a lab area. Has it's own AHU, multiple reheats and zones, etc. Contract for controls just got approved and now they want that all done ASAP. As in by Tuesday next week. Once of those last minute rush things. My installer is busy putting stuff in, we're figuring out how to control things on the fly as we go. Me, I was just sitting there. I have a portable service cart fixed up as a combination computer stand/desk. Had a controller sitting on it rigged up on temporary power. My cart has it's own power supplies. And for quite some time I was just sitting there doing what looked like not much, I'm sure.

    In fact I was looking up info. Digitized plans and layout of the remodel area. Cut sheets and manuals for devices being installed. Manufacturer's suggested operation of the new AHU up on the roof. Etc. And was figuring out just HOW I was gonna control stuff. Believe it or not, sometimes that takes a bit more than a few minutes. Then, once I had the game plan together, actually implementing it ... correctly ... can take even more time. Especially if you're testing and debugging programming as you go using simulation.

    Anyway, several times yesterday other contractors on the site walked by and made comments like, "Sure must be nice to have a cushy job like that. Just sit there and type on a keyboard.", or "Jeez, you've just been staring at that screen for 10 minutes now, did you fall asleep?". Etc.

    Fact was I'd been staring at a listing of over 5500 commands and parameters, control statements, settings and so forth that constituted what was inside that controller, wondering just where my problem lay that caused a glitch such that my control program to not be working as I wanted. AND trying to think of anything else that needed to be added that I might have forgotten. Sometimes it takes a while to find that typo, or that forgotten item, or whatever. I was in fact getting Excedrin headache number 999, and getting very frustrated. Finally got up and walked around, got some fresh air, watched a couple pretty ladies walking by outside, etc while mind was reviewing things, and the answer finally came to me.

    Whereupon I slammed palm into forehead, and mentally told self, "Darn, you're getting even dumber than ever.", felt better and went back and fixed the problem in a minute.

    Oh, ladders you want. I break them out when needed. Only carry a 6 footer. My work vehicle hasn't got room for more than that. If I need something else, I borrow it on site, or call shop and have it delivered.

    However I never bring my in at first. First I want to discover and define the possible problem(s). For myself. I know what customer said it is, but truth to tell, customer is often wrong as to true CAUSE of the problem.
    A site where I stash some stuff that might be interesting to some folks.
    http://cid-0554c074ec47c396.office.l...e.aspx/.Public

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,820
    Some are just LONG WINDED and consider WAR & PEACE a short story. Others will agree to ANYTHING to prove their importance on a project and when they cannot deliver their PROMISES try to pass the ball.

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,479
    Quote Originally Posted by osiyo View Post
    ... just HOW I was gonna control stuff. Believe it or not, sometimes that takes a bit more than a few minutes ...
    Phhht!.... do you even know what yr doing?
    1 + 1 = 3 ( *** for very large values of 1)

    ...everybody wants a box of chocolates and long stemmed rose

  7. #46
    interesting thread, i love it, and its ironic how some replies fall right into the stereotype - anyway the trick is - when you find a good one ? hold him/her ! if not run through them like cord wood, until you find a good one, same as any other profesion no diferent. hey im not a loud mouth tough guy, those are actually a dime a dozen around here. but i do want to get what i pay for. hey think the belts might be loose ? go check... to smart for that ? get lost

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,382
    Quote Originally Posted by MatrixTransform View Post
    Phhht!.... do you even know what yr doing?
    Nope, not at all. Sometimes, maybe. Most of the time ... nope.
    A site where I stash some stuff that might be interesting to some folks.
    http://cid-0554c074ec47c396.office.l...e.aspx/.Public

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    What? Who? Where?
    Posts
    1,721


    01100010 01110010 01100001 01101000 00101100 00100000 01100100 01101111 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01100101 01110110 01100101 01101110 00100000 01100011 01101111 01100100 01100101 00111111

    kontrol out
    "Open is as open does." - Forrest Gump
    "Can't we all just get a Lon?" - Garry Jack
    "BACnet: integration or interrogation?" - The Janitor
    "Open protocols? You can't handle open protocols!" - Nathan R. Jessup
    “What’s that? Aaa… open protocols? Don’t talk about…. open protocols? Are you kidding me? Open protocols? I just hope we can hardwire an interface!” - Jim Mora http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7fjDS0jKiE

  10. #49
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,479
    Quote Originally Posted by kontrolphreak View Post
    01100010 01110010 01100001 01101000 00100000 00101110 00101110 00101110 kontrol out
    54 6f 6f 20 6d 75 63 68 20 6f 66 20 54 68 65 20 47 6c 65 6e 6c 69 76 69 74 3f
    1 + 1 = 3 ( *** for very large values of 1)

    ...everybody wants a box of chocolates and long stemmed rose

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,479
    Quote Originally Posted by simplegreen View Post
    ... anyway the trick is - when you find a good one ? hold him/her ...
    whaaat? I love the attitude ... treat controls people like a resource to plunder ! ...like you own what we do

    find a good one and hold??? ... LOL ... I'll scrape you off like barnacles from a boat ... yr only adding unnecessary drag

    Your days between me and the client are numbered. You dont have the skills, the understanding, the language, the resources ... very soon it is you that will be pwned

    The landscape is changing. Watch this space mech people ...and be afraid...be very afraid! ... yr arse is mine
    1 + 1 = 3 ( *** for very large values of 1)

    ...everybody wants a box of chocolates and long stemmed rose

  12. #51
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    379
    Quote Originally Posted by kontrolphreak View Post


    01100010 01110010 01100001 01101000 00101100 00100000 01100100 01101111 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01100101 01110110 01100101 01101110 00100000 01100011 01101111 01100100 01100101 00111111

    kontrol out
    53352352753052651952153251951952845052353345051545 05205355175255235285214505235185235295344644504504 91450520519519526450516515518450520529532450515528 53952952851945053752252945052251553345053452945053 75295325254505375235345224505345225235334505165265 29537522515532518450527529532529528464450450491450 53752953552651852845753445051953651952845052651953 44505345225194505185355185194505335175325355164505 27539450534529523526519534533464428

  13. #52
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    12,077
    I have been much more involved with dealing with customers, vendors, ect in recent months. I find it difficult, tiring actually to get all the other pieces of the puzzle, like this guy, and that guy on the same page to get what I need done.

    As most here can appreciate, controls can be dominoes. A mechanical failure occurred, which caused a control sequence to either react, perform, execute which in turn creates another event or events to happen. The mechanical tech overrides, jumps out, ect which then kills a compressor or something and then blames controls for not operating the right way. So you get there. You unravel the chain of events, and realize that, it was not the controls to begin with. You go all the way back and come to a conclusion of logic. Then you have to explain this complicated set of ideas and such to people who are not going to understand, and think your full of it. The boss, the customer, the tech, and anyone else having to do with this issue, none of them care, it's just easier to blame the controls.

    I do refrigeration controls mostly. And they are rapidly getting complicated. The industry is losing the real salts of the trade in mass to retirement, ect. So the guys who had true theory and mechanical skills. We control things by integrating with pressures/temps and fitting in those controls into sequences that make those things dance. The old guys have this depth of knowledge. They might not know the computer, but they know the execution. They have that depth of thoery, and such. This new age technician. Night and Day. And the newcomers, the vast majority will never have the depth. So now your in a more lonely world.

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