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  1. #27
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Norfolk, VA USA
    Posts
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Not meaning to beat a dead horse, but I think you are learning...

    The KEY to residential HVAC (well most ALL hvac) is INSTALLATION!!!!!!!!!!!! Be SURE your contractor both knows how and is dedicated to doing a quality job. And you will pay more for this. But you will reap the rewards for years (decades) to come.

    Best to you, now go find yourself a good contractor.
    Funny you should say that because contractor #6 just left. This contractor seems to best fit the bill on quality, which is consistent with their track record at the BBB. Our home is 45 years old and apparently was never designed to accommodate an AC system. This contractor discovered that our duct work is undersized for AC and perhaps for Heating as well. One return duct tube is 12 inches with a 12 X 20 grille, while the other tube is only 6 inches with a 14X 14 grille and the AC is 2.5 tons (My parents obviously short changed on the additional 6 inch return installed by the last contractor). The Heating requirement is at 80,000 BTU.

    He wants to redo the return tubing to 14" and 10" to increase airflow. He says that the 6" supply ducts would be more costly to redo. However, he contents that just by resizing the returns, we should see a significant improvement in air flow and longer life on the heat exchanger. Worthwhile advice?
    Last edited by bout_dem_Gators; 05-09-2007 at 05:01 PM. Reason: Additional details added

  2. #28
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    122
    Hey just replying to the quotes in regaurds to my preferance on equipment.
    I am a tech for the largest retrofit company in the country, we do roughly 20 mil a yr, 0 new construction. We install about the same amount of york as we do rheem ( keep in mind this is in phoenix and the heating season is light) and the warranty work on rheem is half the warranty work on york and trane which we sell 3x's as many has less warranty work than rheem. I am refering to first yr warranty only. lennox we do not sell. Sorry to all the york dealers, just giving you what I see out here in the desert. I am however a big fan of yorks 2spd condenser fan motor on the new pack units though it is very smooth and quiet.

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    21,018
    Quote Originally Posted by bout_dem_Gators View Post
    Funny you should say that because contractor #6 just left. This contractor seems to best fit the bill on quality, which is consistent with their track record at the BBB. Our home is 45 years old and apparently was never designed to accommodate an AC system. This contractor discovered that our duct work is undersized for AC and perhaps for Heating as well. One return duct tube is 12 inches with a 12 X 20 grille, while the other tube is only 6 inches with a 14X 14 grille and the AC is 2.5 tons (My parents obviously short changed on the additional 6 inch return installed by the last contractor). The Heating requirement is at 80,000 BTU.

    He wants to redo the return tubing to 14" and 10" to increase airflow. He says that the 6" supply ducts would be more costly to redo. However, he contents that just by resizing the returns, we should see a significant improvement in air flow and longer life on the heat exchanger. Worthwhile advice?
    Yes, I think you are learning about this mess... IMO the increased return will help. But really, you need for the contractor to do a complete load calculation on the entire house (and room by room). Then the total heat gain (A/C) and heat loss (furnace) size can be sized correctly. And with the room by room, the ductwork can be evaluated to see if one room or another needs less or more air.

    In defense of your parents that used to own the house (?), few HVAC contractors understood air flow back when... And energy was cheap enough that it did not matter than much.

    We live in a computer age where details are the way. Take advantage of the level of expertise that is out there if you find the right guy.

    One thing though: I do not give the results of the load calc to the customer until they sign a contract. Reason is that some folks will get a 'free calc', and get the cheap guy to install. Nobody else is going to install my numbers, they can work their own. Just so you will understand if a contractor is vague about details before the sale is closed.

    Again, best to you. Let us know how it works out... and pictures (before and after) we like pictures!!!!!!!!!!!
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  4. #30
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Norfolk, VA USA
    Posts
    19

    Hmm

    We've had 6 contractors to come out. I believe that 3 of them did a complete "load calculation". However, only the last contractor called the duct size into question. And yes, he was quite vague on giving me the final numbers on resizing the ducts particularly knowing that the cheaper guys were still trying to make a sale. Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

    I only wish that I had some handy charts and could do some quick reading to better understand how duct sizing is accomplished. I'm not looking to become an expert overnight. I just want enough general knowledge to know if resizing is really necessary before we agree to it.

    I'll try to remember to get some before and after shots to share. It's the least I could do. Thanks.

  5. #31
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Norfolk, VA USA
    Posts
    19

    Hmm

    Based on Indoor CFM specs (1000 CFM) on the 2.5 ton Rheem compressor and duct sizing charts I've found on the Net, it appears to me that there is some validity to the contractor's claim on resizing the returns. It seems that a 16" round tube will allow for 1125 CFM. Therefore, the main return tube would go from 12" to 16". But, perhaps because of the small supply duct tubes (6"), the contractor might stop at 14". However, I am even more clueless on what the secondary return for the larger family room would be increased to from the current 6". If we make that return tube an 8" to maintain the current 2:1 size ratio (main tube to secondary tube), I don't see more air moving through that return except what the newer blower might inherently offer. Therefore, I am more inclined to go with a 10" tube for the secondary return. But, what do I know.

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    21,018
    Mr Gator,

    Look at the top of the forum page. You will see a heading: HVAC Calc. Click on that. There is a HO (home owner's) deal you can do for minimal $$$. This is the same program a lot of us use to do a load calc. Now let me mention that this is not simply a chart. Go take a look at it when you have about an hour or so to study it. Then you will understand both why a lot of guys do not do it, and why the ones that do will not freely give away the numbers.

    I like your curiosity and thoroughness! I think when you finally sign, you will get a good job. But do not rush it until you are convinced you have learned what you need, and chosen the right guy (gal?)

    Enjoy reading about HVAC Calc...
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    33

    Replacing Split System: Rheem vx York thus far

    My vote is for Rheem (or Ruud). Great systems.

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Lilburn, Georgia
    Posts
    52
    I'm considering a system similar to the one you have discussed but with the combination of the RPRL-036 (16-Seer HP) and the RGPR furnace also making it dual fuel - and controlled by the Vison Pro IAQ Stat - with outside sensor - and new 'N' series Rheem coil - which I hope will give me 17 seer working in combination.

    (RGLQ vs RGPR - looks like a similar furnace with exception of ECM motor on RGPR)

    Have you make your final choice? If by chance you have completed the installation - how do you like the system?

    Thanks

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    21,018
    I think if someone is going to live in their home for a long time (well over 5 years), and they are willing to spend extra $$$ for comfort, they would do well to go the VS blower route (GE ECM motor) in the furnace/AH.

    In the case of Rheem/Ruud and in 80% efficiency, that would be the RGPR/UGPR furnace. I believe that in this part of the country (Atlanta area), a 90+ VS furnace with a dual-fuel system is kinda overkill.

    It would appear that the market place agrees with that view, as the Rheem/Ruud distributors do not stock their 90% VS furnace in this area.

    There is, however, a good place for 90+ furnaces, and that is when venting an 80% is a difficult mess. A basement finish-out on a home that is finished upstairs, comes to mind.

    On the A/C side, I would not go beyond 16 SEER in this area (Atlanta or N GA mountains). It does not get hot enough here to truely take advantage of a SEER rating up towards 18-20 or more. Folks in Phoenix AZ where it is like an oven most of the year get their money's worth from a 'very high' SEER unit.

    One thing one might want to consider when 'shopping on paper' so to say for this equipment: As one goes higher on the SEER ratings, the need for annual service increases also. What I am saying is that a high SEER unit, like 16 SEER, will not perform well unless it is kept very clean and fine-tuned regularly.

    Oh, and if one is going to invest that much money in equipment, one should IMO add a media filter system. Well worth the investment.

    This evening, if I can, I will look up the ARI ratings on a 16 SEER system on a VS furnace and see what comes out (Ruud equipment, as I am a Ruud dealer). It would be interesting to see if 17 SEER is possible here.

    Note what was said in an earlier thread about the Rheem/Ruud 'N' coil having high SP. Some duct work modification will probably be a must to get this system to work as it was intended.

    Best to you on your project!
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Lilburn, Georgia
    Posts
    52
    Thanks for the detailed comments! Yes - I reviewed the comments on the N coil carefully. Your comments on seer payback are also particularly interesting. Just another example of the value of this site.

    The key for me is in matching a two stage hp with a two stage furnace with an emc motor and also grab the high warranty - 10/10 which the RPRL HP (16 seer) carries. Looking very long term this looks like a good bet given rising utility costs - both elec and gas. With the HP in operation 24/7 for most weeks - the two stage HP/Furnace operation with the inside ECM motor looks like a worthwhile combination. We stayed in our last house 18 years and are planning to do the same with this one - so the long view is what we are most comfortable taking.

    Thanks to all for this interesting thread! Looking forward to hearing from Bout_dem_Gators on an update for his system.

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    21,018
    Quote Originally Posted by martlet View Post
    Thanks for the detailed comments! Yes - I reviewed the comments on the N coil carefully. Your comments on seer payback are also particularly interesting. Just another example of the value of this site.

    The key for me is in matching a two stage hp with a two stage furnace with an emc motor and also grab the high warranty - 10/10 which the RPRL HP (16 seer) carries. Looking very long term this looks like a good bet given rising utility costs - both elec and gas. With the HP in operation 24/7 for most weeks - the two stage HP/Furnace operation with the inside ECM motor looks like a worthwhile combination. We stayed in our last house 18 years and are planning to do the same with this one - so the long view is what we are most comfortable taking.

    Thanks to all for this interesting thread! Looking forward to hearing from Bout_dem_Gators on an update for his system.
    Good thoughts there, the 10/10 is a good thing!

    If I may ask, would you mind posting a few details about your home? Perhaps the design (ranch, split, etc), and the total sq/ft. I have the ARI specs for the UPRL on my desk. Would like to match them to a furnace and see what comes up. Rheem/Ruud is the only company I have installed that gives out exhaustive ARI specs to the dealers. Funny, but I had to literally twist the arm of my sales rep with Trane to get anything, and even then they were abbreviated. Wonder why Trane does not want to give out ARI specs to their installing dealers... Hmmm...

    Anyhow, let us know what you end up with in your planning.
    Last edited by ga-hvac-tech; 05-16-2007 at 09:35 PM.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  12. #38
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    34,040
    Looks like the RPRL-36 maxes out at 16.00 SEER. The 2 ton gets 17 in some combinations.

    GA, if you can get access to the Trane or A-S dealer sites, you won't believe the amount of performance and ARI data that's there. You can look up specs and parts on a 50 year old Trane if you want. It makes rheemote look primitive. Order extended warranties, claims, submit parts claims... probably much more but that's all the farther I've gone with asdealernet

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    21,018
    Quote Originally Posted by BaldLoonie View Post
    Looks like the RPRL-36 maxes out at 16.00 SEER. The 2 ton gets 17 in some combinations.

    GA, if you can get access to the Trane or A-S dealer sites, you won't believe the amount of performance and ARI data that's there. You can look up specs and parts on a 50 year old Trane if you want. It makes rheemote look primitive. Order extended warranties, claims, submit parts claims... probably much more but that's all the farther I've gone with asdealernet
    Hi Loonie,

    I heard about that site. My experience with Trane was short-lived. The distributor down here seems to only be interested in larger dealers. And since I am a small company, I just seemed to get passed over... Even tech support seemed too busy for the little guy...

    I got to thinking: How will I get good service for my customers if I cannot get good service for myself???

    Not a problem with the RUUD distributor here. They are on the spot when I call.

    If Trane would work with me, I would consider them again... but ONLY if they can prove they are willing to take care of every dealer, regardless of size. I am not going to subject my customers to bad service from the distributor. After all, as we all know: It is the installation as much (or more) than the equipment.

    Wonder what will happen if Home Depot sells H-D supply and Trane and Rheem are no longer under their umbrella???
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

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