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  1. #53
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    1,475
    Yeah, well the Maddaloni thing was unfortunate, but you can't condem all 300,000 members of the UA just because two guys made some bad investments and had some shady dealings. That's like saying all cops are crooked because one got caught with his hand in the cookie jar or that all republicans are bad because Nixon got caught commiting felonies.

    The UA delt with it, rebuilt and moved on under the scrutiny and approval of the US Justice Dept.

    There is good and bad on both sides of the fence. Unfortunately, at least around here, unless you get into one the (very few) large shops that are run by the third and fourth generations of the family, who went to college and came home with MBA's and actually KNOW how to run a business and plan for growth and employee retention, you're better off in the union.

    At least that's the way it is in my experience.
    It Is What It Is

  2. #54
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    The union promotes big. They like to work with existing big.

    The bad part is existing "big" is not very dynamic. It stifles the industry in the long run.

    What naturally happens is that the overall quality and delivery of product goes down. Therefore the quality of employees the union has erodes, which the small union contractors see far more readily than the large. And the union really doesn't care about the small guys, both members and contractors.

    On the UA debacle, yea it's over. But it happened. And it was/is a huge hit. Those are the facts. The situation had nowhere to go but up from there. What I'm saying is don't act like the union is a savior that's so much better than non-union because that isn't the case.

  3. #55
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    2,193
    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    the small union contractors see far more readily than the large. And the union really doesn't care about the small guys, both members and contractors.
    .

    LMAO.
    it is clear you are set in your ways.no point in arguing if you say something like that.dont hate the ENTIRE union cuz you caught a bad deal

  4. #56
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    South Jersey
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    1,475
    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    What naturally happens is that the overall quality and delivery of product goes down. Therefore the quality of employees the union has erodes, which the small union contractors see far more readily than the large. And the union really doesn't care about the small guys, both members and contractors.
    .

    That's pretty much how it is anywhere. The strong eat the weak.

    Sounds like you got a bum deal. Sorry to hear that.

    My question is, if the guys you have working for you are bums, why don't you fire them? The union shop I work in will fire you in a heartbeat if you don't get the work done. Just got word today that a guy is on the way out and another one is on the edge if he doesn't shape up.

    So who's fault is it if an employer has a bunch of bums working for him and doesn't pack the gear to show them the door? Certainly not the unions fault.

    If you want to be a big fish, go bid on some big work and leverage the contract to put up the bond, get the insurance, equipment and manpower. Then you'll be a big fish and the union will have to deal with you instead of the other way around. Right?
    It Is What It Is

  5. #57
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Slacking off right now
    Posts
    7,546
    systiant is 100% correct

    dow - it scares me when you say your boss has more pull with the ba than you techs - it should never be this way it leades to favortism between the co and the union with the union member at the greatist risk.


    i have been union and would do so again for the superior compensation packadge not for union protection - it doesn't exist for most members of the ua its an illusion
    www.vetopropac.com - The best tool bags on the market - The offical tool bag of choice by techs everywhere

    Arguing with some people is like wrestling a pig - eventually you realise the pig actually enjoys it

    Gonads serve a useful purpose but are no substitute for brains

  6. #58
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    Quote Originally Posted by bustawrench1 View Post
    That's pretty much how it is anywhere. The strong eat the weak.

    Sounds like you got a bum deal. Sorry to hear that.

    My question is, if the guys you have working for you are bums, why don't you fire them? The union shop I work in will fire you in a heartbeat if you don't get the work done. Just got word today that a guy is on the way out and another one is on the edge if he doesn't shape up.

    So who's fault is it if an employer has a bunch of bums working for him and doesn't pack the gear to show them the door? Certainly not the unions fault.

    If you want to be a big fish, go bid on some big work and leverage the contract to put up the bond, get the insurance, equipment and manpower. Then you'll be a big fish and the union will have to deal with you instead of the other way around. Right?
    If the strong eat the weak someday you might end up on your BA's table.

    The union is supposed to supply a qualified workforce. How many people is an owner supposed to carousel through? Then it gets to the point that those are the only on the bench. That's all you get.

    The size of a company shouldn't matter. The union contract states they will supply qualified workforce. Get it? That's their job. They don't deliver on that because they don't police their ranks enough. And, there is no enforcement or contractor recourse.

  7. #59
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    12,077
    It might no so be one sided as I alluded to. My bosses do have solid relationships with the hall. Mostly because they did 30 years as UA members working in the field.

    My bosses just want to be fair. An example. I was on my way home last night. Half way home, I got called and asked to go back an hour the opposite way in rush hour to go on a call they had gotten. Most of our non committed techs at that time, friday night, cop attitudes and either don't answer the phone or turn it off. It is a warranty manufacturer's service call and they don't pay jack. I asked my boss, could I start my travel right then and how would we work this out.

    I asked because by rights, per our local contract, we should be double time for that, port to port. Having been in business, I also know he will eat all that mostly cause the manufacturer will not pay that. But it's a thing by where, he knows if he calls me when he is a pinch, I will usually end up going. Cause after all, if he can not get another guy, I am the one that gets the call and makes the money when it's there to be made. So I usualy get first dibbs on most good work, cause he knows I am there to do my thing. He knows the rules better than anyone. I could make him square me away with double. So.

    I asked how do we work this out?. He says. "be fair". Left it up to me. I charged time and a half. Could have twice that. But I also understand how this works. So. The union had nothing to do with the fact that I worked out something with my boss. So we both can get out of a jam.

    And I am not the only tech who will do that. And you bet, were the favorites and we get the work first. I get plenty of double bubble as it is. But I also get very steady work when all my buddies at other shops are sitting on their a$$ in the winter or fall and spring. Why? Cause I aint pounding my boss to risk everything to pay me that one day or one call. I want the company and my career to prosper.

  8. #60
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    12,077
    the union to me is only for my bennies. There better than non union. If your a refrigeration mechanic, you will get all the hours you want. If your good, it's at a dollar per hour which is good. So for me. The union is just a means to provide for a better package for my health and my retirement.

  9. #61
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    South Jersey
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    1,475
    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    If the strong eat the weak someday you might end up on your BA's table.
    Fact is, I don't NEED the union. I CHOOSE to work union. The day the union stops putting food my table is day I'm working somewhere else.

    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    The union is supposed to supply a qualified workforce. How many people is an owner supposed to carousel through? Then it gets to the point that those are the only on the bench. That's all you get.

    The size of a company shouldn't matter. The union contract states they will supply qualified workforce. Get it? That's their job. They don't deliver on that because they don't police their ranks enough. And, there is no enforcement or contractor recourse.
    First off, the contract says that you have to consider union members for a position first. NOWHERE does it say that you have to hire them. Nor does it say you have keep them in perpituity if they are bums. You should be able to tell from the resume, if they've been thru five co's in the last three years, chances are they're a bum. That's why they're called bench lizzards.

    Second, The contract says that if the union cannot provide QUALIFIED people, then you can hire them from where-ever, they just have to sign up with the hall after thirty days. But wait, that's too much like effort, easier to blame the union for all your troubles.

    Thirdly, Employers DO NOT want journeymen, they cost too much. Employers want apprentices they can pay $15.00/hr which is what the B.S. entrance exam is REALLY all about. Do you really expect a guy with 10,15 or20 years of experience who can make good money in an open shop to take a 50% pay cut AND lose a days pay every other week to sit thru basic electricity? I sure as hell wouldn't, and that's exactly what I told them when I came on board.

    Lastly, Their JOB is to negotiate a fair collective bargining agreement and administer the benifit and retirement funds. It is not to do all your recruiting and training for you.

    You should know this since you claim to have a Local 601 book. Were you asleep the whole time or did you think that once you opened up you own shop the clouds would part and the Hand of God would come down and make things better for you than every body else? Welcome to reality, nothing is free in this world and if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

    Fact is, you sound like you're just plain disgruntled and the Union is an easy scapegoat. Once again, I'm sorry you got a bum deal. I really don't care one way or the other, but I'm not going to sit here and let you call me thief and a lazy bum and a sheep just because I hold a union card. That is straight up B.S.
    It Is What It Is

  10. #62
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    Don't get me started on the Diplomat... It goes deeper than cost over runs. You will get beat silly on it. ....talk about starry eyed.

    My whole point on the union-

    if they don't have a qualified workforce, THE CONTRACTOR finds it.
    if the union doesn't have up to date education THE CONTRACTOR finds it.
    if the union kills their pension/health THE CONTRACTOR fixes it.

    unions are very convenient as a labor rate setting tool. Most of the other stuff they say they do is BS.

    That's why I find my own workforce, educate and pay them accordingly. I'm not crying about it, I'm stating facts and the solution.
    Last edited by ARPA; 11-18-2007 at 07:11 PM.

  11. #63
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    1,475
    OK, so we've established that:

    1) Your big problem with union labor is that it costs you too much money.........Typical.

    2) You are both obssesed with and at the same time amazed by the fact that powerful people can be corrupt..........but I'm Starry Eyed?

    3) You are no longer a union contractor...........So why do you even care, you should be happy that the union is "screwing" all your competitors while you underbid the jobs and run off with all the accounts.

    4) You have no problem with contractors who commit felonies like fraud, theft, forgery, ect and try to ripoff the taxpayers and the customers. It's only when union officals cross the line that it's a problem, but then only if it screws the poor honest working stiff union emplyees. The same ones who are poorly trained, lazy, shiftless bums leaching off you for three times what you think they should be paid..............Interesting position.

    Thanks for the diversion, it gets boring sitting around the house waiting for service calls, but I have to go now, us union guys have a secret meeting scheduled to figure out some new ways to screw the contractors, don't tell anybody...OK?
    It Is What It Is

  12. #64
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    4,995
    Well
    Last edited by ARPA; 11-18-2007 at 07:10 PM.
    Your poor planning does not constitute an emergency on my part!!!!

  13. #65
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Northern California Central Valley
    Posts
    90
    Quote Originally Posted by willtinner View Post
    i am considering moving to phoenix. i am currently a union apprentice in ohio. i am not sure of staying in the union when i move there. when i look at non-union job offers in the phoenix area, they are very competitve with the union. in which will i stay more busy?
    Why in the world would you want to move to Arizona? I have in-laws there and I lived there for 3 years. The day I left in July 1990 it was 122 degrees at Sky Harbour in Phoneix. "Yeah, but it's a dry heat", don't fall for that one, wait till you have to climb into an attic or small crawl space, you'll no what hell is like right away!

    BTW, Arizona is a Right To Work State and your Union will be null, the power of Unions in Arizona is very limited and you will be out numbered by non-union workers. Do you speak Spanish?

    My advice is don't go unless your planning to start your own business, if you start your own be ready to compete, service techs have increased atleast 3 to 4 times in numbers. My brother-in-law has his own roofing company there, imagine that, a roofer in Arizona, he looks like a saddle bag because of the sun. I know enough to know by what they tell me you don't want to be an employee in this trade in the state of Arizona!
    I know this sounds very opinionated and it is just that my opinion! Take it with a grain of salt and a few salt tablets cause your gonna be sweatin' like a whore in church. Oh yeah, stay with the Union if you want to have a retirement!

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