Carrier 59TP5 96% vs. Goodman GMVC95 96%

[pman555]

OK, I think we've narrowed our search down to these two furnaces. The bids were from separate installers, both of whom have good reputations in our area.

Quick info on our house:
3 Bedroom split in Northern NJ, approx. 2,000 sf

Can you guys tell me the real difference between the Carrier 59TP5 and Goodman GMVC95?
No matter which we go with, we'd be getting a humidifier and air cleaner installed with the system.

Both are 96% AFUE, two-stage, variable speed ECM motor.
The biggest difference I see is that the Goodman is a communicating furnace, while the Carrier is not.
Is that a difference I'd notice in day-to-day operation? Or is that not that big of a deal?

Thanks again for all your help!

[pman555]

Shameless bump. Anyone have an opinion?

[RyanHughes]

The Carrier isn't a variable speed ECM. It has a fixed speed, high efficiency ECM motor. So you aren't comparing equivalent products.

[Chuck]

The Carrier isn't a variable speed ECM. It has a fixed speed, high efficiency ECM motor. So you aren't comparing equivalent products.

If by fixed speed you mean fixed rpm, its not completely true. An X13 or constant torque motor runs at a fixed torque and varies its speed to maintain that torque. So as the filter loads up it speeds up to compensate.

The main advantage to a constant airflow ECM like the GMVC has is that there are more speeds available ans ramping profiles that help with humidity removal during cooling. And with the correct stat, can dehumidify on demand.

[pman555]

The Carrier isn't a variable speed ECM. It has a fixed speed, high efficiency ECM motor. So you aren't comparing equivalent products.

Thanks for your reply. And now I'm even more confused.

I actually confirmed with the contractor on the phone that the Carrier furnace was variable speed, but maybe I misheard.

Here is an email I got from the contractor who is recommending the Carrier product:
"The advantages of variable speed ECM motor furnaces are more airflow and better motor energy efficiency. The big disadvantage is more air flow in older undersized duct systems creates furnace fan and air noise. Variable speed furnaces are factory set air flows and are not field adjustable therefore if the installation turns out to be loud, you will have to live with it.

The Carrier furnace 59TP5080-116 has an ECM motor with a 4 ton drive. ECM motors are much more energy efficient and are used with all variable speed furnaces. The advantage of this furnace is that the fan speed is field adjustable. This means that we can adjust the fan speed to give us maximum airflow without being loud. This is my favorite furnace because I can be confident that our customers will get good airflow and also a quiet furnace."

Anyway, would you suggest a variable speed ECM motor over a fixed speed ECM?

[pman555]

If by fixed speed you mean fixed rpm, its not completely true. An X13 or constant torque motor runs at a fixed torque and varies its speed to maintain that torque. So as the filter loads up it speeds up to compensate.

The main advantage to a constant airflow ECM like the GMVC has is that there are more speeds available ans ramping profiles that help with humidity removal during cooling. And with the correct stat, can dehumidify on demand.

So it sounds like you prefer the Goodman product over the Carrier because of both the motor as well as the fact that it is a "communicating" furnace, right?

[Chuck]

So it sounds like you prefer the Goodman product over the Carrier because of both the motor as well as the fact that it is a "communicating" furnace, right?

Both the carrier and Goodman have variable speed motors. The one that is in the Goodman is almost unlimited on speeds, the carrier is limited to 3 or 4 speeds.

Carrier also makes full featured variable speed fans, they will cost a little more than the Goodman.

And used with Goodman communicating stat you will get the full benefit of the ECM's features.

[RyanHughes]

If by fixed speed you mean fixed rpm, its not completely true. An X13 or constant torque motor runs at a fixed torque and varies its speed to maintain that torque. So as the filter loads up it speeds up to compensate.

The main advantage to a constant airflow ECM like the GMVC has is that there are more speeds available ans ramping profiles that help with humidity removal during cooling. And with the correct stat, can dehumidify on demand.

Thanks for the further explanation.

X13 motors are certainly more efficient and powerful than the older PSC type, and as long as the correct speed tap is chosen, close to nominal CFM can be achieved up to about .5-.6" ESP (static pressure -- your dealer should verify this at installation and select the correct blower tap for your duct system). At higher statics, airflow will drop off quickly just like conventional blowers. Variable speed motors will maintain a constant CFM at higher statics, but as your dealer mentioned, with more noise. So while variable speed technology is superior in terms of comfort and system performance, it will highlight your existing duct problems if they are not corrected beforehand.

The Infinity furnaces (59TN6 and 59MN7) use the variable speed ECM motor -- they will maintain constant airflow across varying duct conditions. Calling an X13 motor variable speed is somewhat misleading (in my opinion) if it makes the consumer believe they are getting the same features VS ECM blowers provide.

If you plan on getting a 2-stage air conditioner down the road, they work better with variable speed blowers due to the airflow options.

[pman555]

Thanks for the further explanation.

X13 motors are certainly more efficient and powerful than the older PSC type, and as long as the correct speed tap is chosen, close to nominal CFM can be achieved up to about .5-.6" ESP (static pressure -- your dealer should verify this at installation and select the correct blower tap for your duct system). At higher statics, airflow will drop off quickly just like conventional blowers. Variable speed motors will maintain a constant CFM at higher statics, but as your dealer mentioned, with more noise. So while variable speed technology is superior in terms of comfort and system performance, it will highlight your existing duct problems if they are not corrected beforehand.

The Infinity furnaces (59TN6 and 59MN7) use the variable speed ECM motor -- they will maintain constant airflow across varying duct conditions. Calling an X13 motor variable speed is somewhat misleading (in my opinion) if it makes the consumer believe they are getting the same features VS ECM blowers provide.

If you plan on getting a 2-stage air conditioner down the road, they work better with variable speed blowers due to the airflow options.

Thanks for your explanation, Ryan.
We are definitely planning on staying in our house for many years. The existing AC unit is 10 years old and still running strong, but will probably need to be replaced sooner rather than later. And we would probably go for a 2-stage air conditioner, so I think we should be looking for a variable speed blower.

Taking this further, if we can get a Lennox SLP98 instead of the Goodman GMVC95, would you recommend going with the Lennox? This would be from the same installer.

Also, if we go with a communicating furnace, would we need to upgrade our thermostat? Currently, we are using this guy and love the wifi ability: http://www.radiothermostat.com/filtrete/products/3M-50/

[Chuck]

Thanks for your explanation, Ryan.
We are definitely planning on staying in our house for many years. The existing AC unit is 10 years old and still running strong, but will probably need to be replaced sooner rather than later. And we would probably go for a 2-stage air conditioner, so I think we should be looking for a variable speed blower.

Taking this further, if we can get a Lennox SLP98 instead of the Goodman GMVC95, would you recommend going with the Lennox? This would be from the same installer.

Also, if we go with a communicating furnace, would we need to upgrade our thermostat? Currently, we are using this guy and love the wifi ability: http://www.radiothermostat.com/filtrete/products/3M-50/

The Lennox and carrier communicating stats are WiFi capable, but I don't think the Goodman is.

If I were you I would go with carrier infinity or Lennox slp98. Both top notch machines.

[pman555]

The Lennox and carrier communicating stats are WiFi capable, but I don't think the Goodman is.

If I were you I would go with carrier infinity or Lennox slp98. Both top notch machines.

Thanks for the clear recommendations! I'm leaning towards the Lennox myself.

If we did not want to go with the Lennox iComfort system (due to cost), could we use a different advanced thermostat but still get the same functionality? If so, do you have any recommendations?

EDIT: Adding to this, would I even be able to use the Lennox iComfort system if my 10 yr old AC unit is a Carrier?

[wahoo]

We sold Lennox for years, now sell more Amana (Goodman's premium line), Goodman, or Rudd. I'd recommend Amana's furnaces due to the lifetime unit replacement warranty. Your Goodman dealer should be able to upgrade to Amana. There is a "fairy tale" that goes around about "Premium" brands that hints that "IF IT'S MORE EXPENSIVE, IT MUST BE BETTER". One thing the "Premium" brands usually offer is incentive trips/vacations for their larger dealers. Yep, you guessed it, you the customer pay if you believe the "fairy tale". Very little actual difference in quality delivered to the customer, however as mentioned by most it's the DEALER who actually makes the most difference (not the brand). Get the most efficient you can afford, from the best dealer, with the longest out of the box warranty (no 2nd party labor warranties!).

[Chuck]

Thanks for the clear recommendations! I'm leaning towards the Lennox myself.

If we did not want to go with the Lennox iComfort system (due to cost), could we use a different advanced thermostat but still get the same functionality? If so, do you have any recommendations?

EDIT: Adding to this, would I even be able to use the Lennox iComfort system if my 10 yr old AC unit is a Carrier?

Any stat with similar features as the icomfort will cost as much as the icomfort. If you want a different one look at Ecobee, no other stat comes close IMO.

Yes, icomfort will work with any non communicating a/c.