YVAA high eductor temps?

[Yknubee]

Has anyone heard anything about a YVAA high eductor temp repair. Not a band aid repair, but what is the real problem?

[KnewYork]

This taken from the NOM (installation, operation and maintenance manual). Is this the problem you are experiencing? It doesn't mention high educator temperature in the safety shutdowns.

Eductor Clog Fault

To sense a loss of oil return to the compressor, an educator clog detection safety is utilized. The safety monitors the temperature of the line between the educator and the suction line. The control algorithm looks at the eductor line temperature once a second. At start, a clog timer is set at 600 seconds. If the eductor line temperature is less than the saturated suction temperature plus 5.5°C (10°F) each
time the control circuit looks at the temperature, the clog timer is reset to 600 seconds. If the eductor line temperatures is greater than the saturated suction temperature plus 5.5°C (10°F), the clog timer is decremented one second. If the temperature remains above the saturated suction temperature plus 5.5°C (10°F) for 600 seconds, the clog timer will count to “0” and the system will shut down and lock out. The status fault will indicate an eductor clog fault. Whenever this fault occurs, the eductor filter should be changed. The clog timer resets to 600 seconds whenever the control algorithm sees the eductor line temperature is less than the saturated suction pressure plus 5.5°C (10°F). This prevents nuisance eductor clog faults.

If you don't have the manual, you can find it here on one of JCI's websites.

[Yknubee]

Yes. Eductor clog fault. I know we were having many problems with this on new chillers. Between 90 and 120 hz the temp dif between sat suct and eductor temp would climb to 25-30 degrees. Above or below this range and dif would be 5-10 deg. If chiller didn't stay in this range for more than fault timer, there would be no faults. The eductor filters were thought to be clogged, but new filters had same outcome. Jci made Temporary fixes by putting eductor sensors onto suction lines, until factory could get issue resolved. I was wondering if anybody had heard if there was a real repair?

[klove]

Based on your name and your comment, are you a jci employee?

[jayguy]

What is your fault timer set at? And what is the Eductor temp setpoint at? There have been changes since the chiller first came out.

[KnewYork]

What is your fault timer set at? And what is the Eductor temp setpoint at? There have been changes since the chiller first came out.

I saw those values are programmable in the IOM manual. Does it require a software upgrade and is it a matter of changing a flash card?

[Yknubee]

Fault timers have been set as high as 60min. Eductor setpoints at 20 degrees. You don't need any upgrades to change setpoint. Just a password.

[jayguy]

If you are still having issues, then have you verified the suction pressure and Eductor temp are accurate?

[Yknubee]

I haven't seen this on the newest YVAA's, but the first year they came out we were having issues with most them tripping on this fault. Many of them still tripped after the Ed dif temp and timers were adjusted. All temp sensor and pressure transducers were accurate. The educators just weren't working in the 90-120 hz range.

[Yknubee]

For several reasons(one being new to site) I was hesitant on giving out too much personal info. But yes, I do work for JCI.

[jayguy]

i have found that if you are moving a lot of oil, the eductor temperature goes up. do you have too much oil? what is the oil level in the oil separator?

[klove]

For several reasons(one being new to site) I was hesitant on giving out too much personal info. But yes, I do work for JCI.

I applaud you for taking your time to learn and for using avenues to do so that others are too lazy to take advantage of, but don't you think that a factory "tech" should be turning to the factory for answers on his own equipment? Just seems a bit odd to me that someone that works for the manufacturer has to go to the general public for technical answers, but having been there for years before the buyout and a little while after (and seeing the changes that took place), I can say that it really doesn't surprise me. There's still times that I'm asked questions by some of the folks that work for jci in service, and although it's amusing in a fashion, it's also irritating that the factories service personnel would ask me to teach them how their own machinery works (sort of like handing me a knife and asking if I'll demonstrate how to cut my own throat). If I worked for a manufacturer that put me in a position like that, I'd be having some serious reservations about my current employer. I'm truly not trying to be a hard-a** about this subject, nor am I trying to be offensive to you. You are - either by choice or by chance - working for an OEM that obviously can't support you, because they either don't know how, or don't care.

Years ago, the factories wouldn't even do direct sell or out-of-warranty service except for a few very select customers, because they didn't want to compete with the folks that sold and installed their gear. My, how the times have changed!! Now, not only will they buy a job from their installing contractors, but they've run off everyone that knows their eqpt and their service dept employees have to go to the general public and ex-York service mechanics (who also happen to be their competition, now) to try and get answers as to why their stuff don't work or how it works. It just seems to be the next stumble in the evolution of a once-great service organization. And it hasn't taken long for all this to transpire. Hate to see where it will bottom out............

[Yknubee]

Klove. You are right. I gave up too soon. I should have kept nagging factory tech support and engineers. I didn't get the answer I was looking for but I got the answer to my question. If YVAA continues to trip on educ clog after eductor temp is set to 20 deg, and educ timers are set to 60 min, the relocation of the educator sensor to the suction line IS the final fix. The oil being pulled from evap was causing temp to rise (as Jayguy had stated). This was causing nuisance trips when there was no real problems. Factory engineers are relieing on other safeties(low oil pres dif) to shut down cir if too much oil is trapped in evap.

[jayguy]

...The oil being pulled from evap was causing temp to rise (as Jayguy had stated)...

trane has similar issues, however, they don't monitor the condition to give you a warning on where to look...you just wait for it to trip or have problems. i would consider investigating why you have so much oil in the evaporator in the first place.

[Yknubee]

Jayguy. I appreciate your input. I have only ran across one YVAA that I could say definitely had too much oil in the evap. It had run most of the winter unloaded. I was able to get the oil back by loading the circuit up for a few hours. I will definitely investigate these issues further in the future.

[klove]

This was causing nuisance trips when there was no real problems. Factory engineers are relieing on other safeties(low oil pres dif) to shut down cir if too much oil is trapped in evap.

Oh, but there are very real problems. And they can all be summed up in a single term: Over-engineering

[Yknubee]

Oh, but there are very real problems. And they can all be summed up in a single term: Over-engineering

Im not sure about that. I was actually thinking under-engineering. Either way, the engineering stunk. But on the upside...JCI has come out with a different setup, (larger orifice, and they are using hot gas for the high pressure side). Now it is over-engineered.

[jerry142]

Is this still the final fix on these yvaa chillers. I have this problem on new contract for me, jci had it under contract previous years and I guess they just kept resetting. Problem is intermittent, but needs to be addressed. Customer would like an official answer. Thanks

[jerry142]

Is this the final fix for this chiller. I have a 2012 model. Intermittent trips can’t find any other issues described above other than it trips off occasionally

[Yknubee]

Is this the final fix for this chiller. I have a 2012 model. Intermittent trips can’t find any other issues described above other than it trips off occasionally

Does the high pressure pipe for eductor come off the backside of compressor or off "true discharge pressure"?
If it comes off the compressor it will most likely not return enough oil/refrigerant between 90-120hz range. Above or below this range they seem to work. After the first year (or so) they came out with the high pressure eductor line that tapped into the discharge pipe.
Your best bet (if it is coming off the compressor) is to cap that line and tap the high pressure side of eductor into discharge pipe.