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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    4

    Leak stop products for heat pumps

    A service tech said he could test our unit (16 year old Carrier, single package, all electric, heat pump a/c) for $X to see if he could locate leaks. If so, he would charge $X to change capacitors, clean out debris, dirt and install some type of gunk into the system that would seal up any leaks in the compressor or the other parts of the heat pump. This sounds fishy and expensive.

    He gave us a quote for installation of a 3 ton trane (using an American Standard model number) for a 1250 sq foot home of $X but he couldn't guarantee if the unit could pass California's 15% efficiency standards.

    We have gotton several quotes so far and they are really strange and no one except the Trane dealer has seemed entirely honoest.

    Any advice. We paid $X to have our system filled with freon 2 weeks ago and were told that if it stopped running that we needed to replace the system.

    Also Any advice on the new vs old coolant on new installation?
    Last edited by jrbenny; 04-22-2007 at 07:00 PM. Reason: pricing removed...try to read the rules and comprehend them

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    6,285
    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO it cant ever be serviced after the "gunk" Get more quotes....sounds like a rip off...if he uses square feet to determine what you need thats the first indicator hes a shame artist. If the find your leak then the system doesn't have to be replaced unless you have have other problems....Why was he replacing your capacitors if they weren't damaged and it started up? $10a refrigerant is a good replacement for long term....R-22 will be phased out soon of new equipment but you will still be able to purchase it for a long time some say up to 20-30 years. 2010 is the cutoff for R-22. you say 15% efficiency you mean 15 seer? Before you change anything out do extensive research on here and talk to as many as possible especially the ones with pro under their names. Guys on here are more than happy to help and in the long run will save you bunches of money..most likely.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Hell Hole Swamp
    Posts
    4,180
    Find another tech, hopefully one that can find and repair leaks

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    central Indiana
    Posts
    44
    Agree all around, BigJon, also, they should not have put that much freon in without a leak check, and you should probably go with puron(r-410), since freon(r-22)will be phased out of new units in 2010, although it will be made for service purposes for a while, and there are drop in replacements for it. Still, you should go with puron.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    6,285
    Quote Originally Posted by dejomatic View Post
    Agree all around, BigJon, also, they should not have put that much freon in without a leak check, and you should probably go with puron(r-410), since freon(r-22)will be phased out of new units in 2010, although it will be made for service purposes for a while, and there are drop in replacements for it. Still, you should go with puron.
    Correct and I will go further by saying unless its like 1/2 or less of refrigerant over a years time. Its illegal for them to top off your system....That is considered venting refrigerant into the air and is a huge fine. Any loss in my opinion is a leak...it's just how hard it is to find if its extremely small it's going to be hard to find if its 4 lbs a month...you have a gapping hole and need to get it fixed.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Southold.calm
    Posts
    5,551
    Quote Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
    Correct and I will go further by saying unless its like 1/2 or less of refrigerant over a years time. Its illegal for them to top off your system....That is considered venting refrigerant into the air and is a huge fine.
    Bigjohn

    You should know better. Only systems containing 50 or more #’s of refrigerant must have leaks fixed.

    Lavala

    Forget the stop leak. Find another contractor that knows what there doing. 16 year old system is worth replacing.

    Good Luck

  7. #7
    wconell Guest
    I'm one that believes anything other than the refrigerant the system was designed for is a contaminant. I agree- you need to keep looking for a good contractor. Find and repair the leak(s), then you'll have time to prepare for a new system in the future.

    A compressor may start and run with a bad capacitor if there is a start assist, however the compressor will quit on the IOL. *If he is talking about the compressor.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    6,285
    Quote Originally Posted by pecmsg View Post
    Bigjohn

    You should know better. Only systems containing 50 or more #’s of refrigerant must have leaks fixed.

    I know you didnt seriously say this....Okay Homeowner...keep adding refrigerant instead of fixing the leak.....its only $600 a pop.....I think we can see who's out for your money on this post.


    How about you make your own decision....

    "
    Refrigerant Leaks

    Owners of equipment with charges of greater than 50 pounds are required to repair leaks in the equipment when those leaks together would result in the loss of more than a certain percentage of the equipment's charge over a year. For the commercial and industrial process refrigeration sectors, leaks must be repaired when the appliance leaks at a rate that would release 35 percent or more of the charge over a year. For all other sectors, including comfort cooling, leaks must be repaired when the appliance leaks at a rate that would release 15 percent or more of the charge over a year.
    The trigger for repair requirements is the current leak rate rather than the total quantity of refrigerant lost. For instance, owners of a commercial refrigeration system containing 100 pounds of charge must repair leaks if they find that the system has lost 10 pounds of charge over the past month; although 10 pounds represents only 10 percent of the system charge in this case, a leak rate of 10 pounds per month would result in the release of over 100 percent of the charge over the year. To track leak rates, owners of air-conditioning and refrigeration equipment with more than 50 pounds of charge must keep records of the quantity of refrigerant added to their equipment during servicing and maintenance procedures.
    Owners are required to repair leaks within 30 days of discovery. This requirement is waived if, within 30 days of discovery, owners develop a one-year retrofit or retirement plan for the leaking equipment. Owners of industrial process refrigeration equipment may qualify for additional time under certain circumstances. For example, if an industrial process shutdown is required to repair a leak, owners have 120 days to repair the leak. Owners of leaky industrial process refrigeration equipment should see the Compliance Assistance Guidance Document for Leak Repair (available from the hotline) for additional information concerning time extensions and pertinent recordkeeping and reporting requirements. EPA anticipates putting this document on the web site, but does not have an estimated date for when that will happen.
    A longer fact sheet about leak repair is also available."

    http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/

    Just a quote....

    "EPA now requires calculation of the leak rate every time that refrigerant is added to an appliance."

    True its only 50lb and higher but at $400-$600 a pop what would you rather do? "Require the repair of substantial leaks in air-conditioning and refrigeration equipment with a charge of greater than 50 pounds."

    "Prohibitions.- (1) Effective July 1, 1992, it shall be
    unlawful for any person, in the course of maintaining, servicing,
    repairing, or disposing of an appliance or industrial process
    refrigeration, to knowingly vent or otherwise knowingly release
    or dispose of any class I or class II substance used as a
    refrigerant in such appliance (or industrial process
    refrigeration) in a manner which permits such substance to enter
    the environment. De minimis releases associated with good faith
    attempts to recapture and recycle or safely dispose of any such
    substance shall not be subject to the prohibition set forth in
    the preceding sentence."

    In my eyes anyone that tops off a system knows its leaking and is violating this rule.

    The person that should really be ashamed of themselves is someone that misleads you otherwise....
    Last edited by BigJon3475; 04-21-2007 at 05:59 PM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    1,840
    2020 for r-22 guys i do believe is has been extended

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    6,285
    If you would just kindly post up that info please....Otherwise its 2010.

    "Phaseout Schedule for HCFCs Including R-22

    Under the terms of the Montreal Protocol, the U.S. agreed to meet certain obligations by specific dates that will affect the residential heat pump and air-conditioning industry:
    January 1, 2004: In accordance with the terms of the Montreal Protocol, the amount of all HCFCs that can be produced nationwide must be reduced by 35% by 2004. In order to achieve this goal, the U.S. is ceasing production of HCFC-141b, the most ozone-damaging of this class of chemicals, on January 1, 2003. This production ban will greatly reduce nationwide use of HCFCs as a group, making it likely that the 2004 deadline will have a minimal effect on R-22 supplies.January 1, 2010:After 2010, chemical manufacturers may still produce R-22 to service existing equipment, but not for use in new equipment. As a result, heating, ventilation and air-conditioning (HVAC) system manufacturers will only be able to use pre-existing supplies of R-22 to produce new air conditioners and heat pumps. These existing supplies would include R-22 recovered from existing equipment and recycled.January 1, 2020: Use of existing refrigerant, including refrigerant that has been recovered and recycled, will be allowed beyond 2020 to service existing systems, but chemical manufacturers will no longer be able to produce R-22 to service existing air conditioners and heat pumps. For more information about this phaseout, see fact sheets about the HCFC Phaseout Schedule and Frequently Asked Questions on the HCFC Phaseout."

    http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/phas...2phaseout.html

  11. #11
    If you have gotten 16 years out of your Carrier system, my advice would be that you look at Carrier dealers in your area.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    4

    Thank you for all your advice.

    Why do all the contractors (5 so far) recommend the R22 models over the new?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    6,285
    They may have a stock of them ....thats a hard one to answer without knowing what each one says.

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