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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    ohio
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    70

    Hobart CRS110A -Steam Injection?

    Hello fellows. Working on a Hobart CRS110A Dish Machine. This machine is (I believe) a crs22 prewash unit attached to two crs44's . I've worked on these before without to much trouble. What got me stumped now is this particular CRS110A machine is set up for Steam Injection for heat. I've never encountered this type. To make matters worse the cover to the control box with the schematic on it is missing. Naturally I can't find any info on the net about this unit. My first question I had is where does the steam come from? Are these types of units mainly used in large institutions that uses steam for heat like a prison or a hospital? If not is there a optional
    "steam generator" that you can purchase for this machine? Hopefully when I order a new cover for the control box it will have the schematic on the underside. Anybody got any info on this "steam generator" and/or how this sucker gets plumbed? Thanks!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    818
    What'd you get yourself into? They have a steam-heated dish machine, but no source of STEAM?
    Does that facility not have boilers at ALL for the heating of their building?

    Maybe somebody else might know better, but I don't know of any "optional" steam generator merely to heat a single unit. The closest I can think of is a boiler-based steamer used for cooking that's rated for connection to auxiliary cooking appliances such as steam kettles. However, I've never seen nor heard of those also being used as source steam for heating in a dish machine. I don't they can produce adequate BTUs to generate that much steam AND still be used for their primary purpose of cooking.

    Regarding steam plumbing, the machine should already have dedicated line strainers and/or check valves along with solenoid valves to feed the steam injector and coils. Obviously the steam pressure must be regulated from the source. If that machine also has a steam coil (vise injection) or two for other sections of the machine and a booster heater, then each of those will also have a condensate trap after the coil outlet. In our locality, that condensate can be released to a floor drain.

    Steam plumbing to the machine should be schedule 80 black pipe. The pipe should be suitably encased in insulation.

    Do you have the ML # from the data plate? I'll see if the units we have where I work are the same. If so, then I'll snap a picture of the schematic. However, if they're "prior construction" then I can't help you there.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    South East US
    Posts
    96
    Heh. As ECtofix says, whatcha got there?

    I'm guessing that because this is a discontinued model, it had to have been moved into place and you got the call to hook 'er up?

    Anyway, if it has *steam* coils in the tanks, you need a source for building-supplied steam, nothing else will do. There is no externally mounted steam boiler available that would keep this unit happy feeding all the tanks.
    As far as how it works, it couldn't be more simple. Power in, through low water float, thermostat, to solenoid coil. Maybe a relay in there somewhere. Oops, door switch circuit in there too. Standard stuff. Make believe the steam solenoid is just a contactor and go from there.

    If, however, it has what looks like a single large diameter pipe loop in the tanks, that is a gas burner unit mounted to the bottom of the tank. If this is the case, pack up yer tools and run away. Those are some ornery burners.
    If you have this option, you'll need a full exhuast hood over the machine, and of course a suitable gas supply.

    Hobart has some info online, but a quick look didn't show any circuit diagrams. Poke around, you may come accross one.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    70
    Hey guys, sorry for the incomplete information. I am no longer on the road but work in house now for a company repairing commercial Restaurant. This unit is sitting in my shop. This unit has no steam coils. In each 44 tank is what looks like a 1" ss pipe hooked up to a "ball" that has some holes in it. I'll post some pictures tomorrow. Thanks!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    South East US
    Posts
    96
    Sounds like a really old direct injection steam system- total loss of the steam into the water. My goodness! I don't think those are legal anymore- you have to keep the steam from direct contact with warewashing water. Just like you can't use building steam to direct inject into a vegatable steamer.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    818
    Yes, we have one too that's direct injection that's the same model number(s) too 22+44+44=110). Relatively newer one to me compared to what I saw when doing field service work. Still the basic rocker switches on the control panel, but ours uses a Hall Effect sensor to monitor conveyor motor speed in the event of RPM drop due to a jam.

    Feeding each of those AW lines, you should see a line strainer, a solenoid valve and a check valve. Of course, the solenoid valves operate from a thermostat.

    If you think you're gonna try to fix it for whatever reason, let me know and I'll try to get schematic for you.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    818
    Quote Originally Posted by ECtofix View Post
    Yes, we have one too that's direct injection that's the same model number(s) too 22+44+44=110).
    I looked at our manual when I returned from my dinner break. Hobart made a mess when they wrote the C-line parts manual. Ours is a CRS-88A (44+44?) with the CRS22 prewash. Hence, the 88+22 makes it a 110. Of course, the data plate only says it's a CRS110A. Hobart never printed a manual specifically for a 110. Instead, you have to take two or three manuals and pick out the pieces of each that apply to your machine. Gotta love Hobart!

    Quote Originally Posted by ECtofix View Post
    Feeding each of those AW lines, you should see a line strainer, a solenoid valve and a check valve. Of course, the solenoid valves operate from a thermostat.
    Flipping auto-correct phone! AW should've been SS.

    Oh...and I misspoke. Got too many dish machine brand names & designs that run together in my head. The temp control is solid state instead of a "basic" thermostat.

    • The bottom, four wire float switch/probe is a Reed switch (via a magnet in the float) and temp probe. The Reed switch part initiates the heat cycle and while the probe part of it senses temperature for a solid state temp control board.


    • The top float probe has two wires and is just another Reed switch to stop water fill.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Stongsville Oh
    Posts
    931
    Steam injection is lust that it shoots steam directly in to the water in the basin or sump. Sorry if I duplicated the answer because I didn't read all the posts. A temp control will control the injection valve. Much steam is needed, These are usually in institutional kitchens that use steam for steam kettles and other equipment. A steam line is piped to the kitchen for all these steam operated devices.
    ckartson
    I didn't write the book I just read it!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    70
    ECtofix, If you could send me a copy of that Schematic and any other info you have it would be greatly appreciated. Yes steam injection. Refurbishing a unit like this is probably a iffy proposition.
    Very limited number of potential buyers. Wonder if it could be converted to electric by adding some heating elements and contactors? I know it would be expensive. Maybe split it up and have a crs66A - 44 + 22. Here is a pic of the inside of one of the tanks. Badbozo said something about having to keep the steam separated from the water. How in the heck do you accomplish that. Thanks for everyone's input!
    Name:  P1000871.jpg
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  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    South East US
    Posts
    96
    >steam separated from the water. How in the heck do you accomplish that

    Modern systems do this by running a full *loop* into and then out of the tank. The steam goes in, gives up it's heat, condenses to liguid, and comes out of the machine through a steam trap, to go either to an open floor drain (noisy) or back to the boiler to be reused.

    As I said, while I am not a health dept employee, and I surely don't know even a fraction of code, I'm sure the type of direct injection is not up to modern code. I dunno. Might fly in some areas.

    It would be a Herculean task to convert it to electric. Better to remove th ball and piping and make a loop inside and bring the other end out.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    818
    Quote Originally Posted by bogart219 View Post
    ECtofix, If you could send me a copy of that Schematic and any other info you have it would be greatly appreciated. Yes steam injection. Refurbishing a unit like this is probably a iffy proposition.
    Did you ever get an ML and serial number? If so, can you post them?

    I was just at our CRS110A last night - removing straws, toothpicks, swizzle stick, sugar packets, etc., etc. from their clogged drain. I looked up at that cover panel, thought of this thread, then realized I didn't have my smartphone for any picture-taking session.

    I'll pull the cover panel tonight and see about getting multiple photos the schematic. I don't think Hobart puts them in their manuals, since every machine is a "hybrid" of sorts. If they do, then they're not available to us "outsiders."

    Quote Originally Posted by BadBozo2315 View Post

    As I said, while I am not a health dept employee, and I surely don't know even a fraction of code, I'm sure the type of direct injection is not up to modern code. I dunno. Might fly in some areas.

    It would be a Herculean task to convert it to electric. Better to remove th ball and piping and make a loop inside and bring the other end out.
    I've never heard steam injection being a health codes violation. At least, not until you mentioned it. For that matter though, I've never SEEN a steam injection machine until I became an in-house tech for this resort & convention center a little over a year ago. If that IS an infraction, I'm not telling anybody!

    Our newest FT900 went topsy-turvy last night. As I was perusing our voluminous, three section parts manual for what I needed, I saw that "steam injection" was an option on those units too. I didn't notice whether that particular page in the parts breakdown was CURRENT or PRIOR construction though. All six of our FT900s are steam COIL anyway.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    South East US
    Posts
    96
    Just perusing the net came up wit this from, of all places, Oklahoma:

    [beginning of copy]

    Steam used by food processors commonly falls into two broad categories. The first is the so-called “culinary,” “sanitary” or “clean” steam. This type of steam is used for direct injection into the product or to clean or sterilize product contact surfaces. We will refer to steam in this category as “culinary” steam. Any additives in culinary steam must meet all applicable FDA and USDA requirements for human consumption.

    The second category of steam used by food processors is often referred to as “plant steam,” “utility steam” or just simply “steam.” This document will call steam in this category “plant” steam. Ordinary plant
    steam can be used in most applications that do not involve contact with food products or with surfaces that contact food products.
    [end of copy]

    osufacts.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document.../FAPC-142web.pdf

    Gaaa. Google makes it so hard to get the direct URL. Just serch for that .PDF. It's actually a very good explanation of steam systems.

    I don't know about grandfathering and such. Or any other state or locality. And neither would I presume to tell any customer that their equipment is non-code unless I believed it was a serious health hazard.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    70
    ECtofix, I will get that ML and serial tomorrow and post. Badbozo, thanks for the info, interesting! Thanks fellows!

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