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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Cincinnati ohio
    Posts
    252
    Inficon has a new sensor that has been revamped to sense 410 and not be so sensitive to wind or quick movements. I bought one but haven't done many 410 leak searches since. I guess that's what happens.

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Central TX
    Posts
    416
    My experience with 410A leaks. A flashlight too find the oil, and soap bubbles to confirm. If I didn't have a leak detector and needed one, I would just get the cheapest one I could find because they all find R22 easily. Use the flashlight and bubbles for 410A. Do not spend $400 dollars on a leak detector because you will be ticked off when it doesn't work reliably on 410A!!!

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    wedged in freezer shelf
    Posts
    7,010
    Quote Originally Posted by SCtech33 View Post
    so it seems the great debate is down to the yj accuprobe, fieldpiece srl2k7 and as always the h10. Who has used the fieldpiece I/r against the fieldpiece heated pentode. im curious as to which one performs better for 410a. I would favor to buy fieldpiece just out of customer service and I have really never been disappointed with a fp product
    I have a SRL8 too not even close to the ZX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    I've never tried the select, but have not had the issues you speak of with the FP
    I've heard that too. Also heard the disappointment. I cant believe it is all mis use.
    “If You Can Dodge A Wrench You Can Dodge A Ball”

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Summerville SC
    Posts
    117
    I talked to the manager at my local johnstone about that new sensor before and found that my tekmate came with it. apparently If your sensor comes in blue wrapper its the new "improved" sensor.
    "only 2 tools any man needs is wd40 and duct tape. if it moves and it shouldn't use the duct tape. if it doesn't move and should, use the wd40" -unknown

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    McQueeney, Texas
    Posts
    3,954
    Name:  31Y2hFnenwL.jpg
Views: 650
Size:  11.6 KB


    Halide torch kit. Very effective.


    Should work great on that r22a stuff. LOL..

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Cincinnati ohio
    Posts
    252
    Quote Originally Posted by SCtech33 View Post
    I talked to the manager at my local johnstone about that new sensor before and found that my tekmate came with it. apparently If your sensor comes in blue wrapper its the new "improved" sensor.
    Yeah the new sensor also has a plastic housing around the metal sensor.

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Mississippi
    Posts
    1,369
    Ultrasonic works with ANY pressurized gas. I've been using an Accutrac for a few months and I love it. Of course I still use a combination of techniques including big blue and D-Tek. I would love to get my hands on a H10PM.

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Frederick, Maryland USA
    Posts
    207
    I started a thread on leak detector sensitivity in parts per million.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    75
    Here's another approach: use co2 to find r410 leaks.

    Not kidding. A guy I know invested in a co2 leak detector from Bacherach and started charging splits up and found leaks like nobodies business.

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Frederick, Maryland USA
    Posts
    207
    I actually looked into that. I use CO2 all the time in place of nitrogen for soldering and drain cleaning. I got tiered of lugging around nitrogen cylinders. So, I carry a bulk 20 pound CO2 refill station in my van and a 24 ounce paint ball cylinder in my tool bag.

    The only problem with CO2 is the background in the atmosphere. The base line is 380 ppm even if you don't have a leak. Mosquitos are very good at detecting variation in CO2 concentration when looking for food. But, can a mosquito or even the best CO2 leak detector tell the difference between 380 ppm and 380.5 ppm 1 ft away from a leak? What happens when you exhale 40,000 ppm of CO2?http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_C...ale_on_average

    You would have to hold your breath during the entire 5 minute leak check, which isn't very practical.

    I had to buy every single leak detector including an $8000 used inficon HLD4000 to find one sensitive to R410a/R134A at concentrations less than 1 ppm. I was actually going to lug around the Inficon HLD4000 until I found a single hand held model that is actually more sensitive to HFC refrigerant than the HLD4000. If you want a free copy of the leak detector report, just email me or buy it for $10 on ebay.

    I'm selling my Inficon now for $1,250 on ebay if anybody is interested.

    By the way, lets look closer at the CO2 leak checking numbers:

    Lets say normal holding charge pressure is 100 psi. Also, suppose you are looking for a small leak that puts out about 1ppm concentration about 6 inches away from the source. There is no wind. Also, suppose the source is the middle of a tube in the middle row of the evaporator.

    Raise the pressure to 500 psi (4X) and the leak rate is 16 times bigger (4X squared). You can see the math for this earlier in this post. I'm neglecting 14.8 psi ground pressure for simplicity.

    With the higher pressure, the 1ppm concentration turns into 16ppm 6 inches from the leak. The H10PM has a sensitivity to R410a of 20ppm when running the sensor really hot. So, if you are lucky and brush by closer than 6 inches to the leak, you will probably find the leak after going thru all the trouble (and risk) of over pressurizing the system.

    I just simply leak check with a leak detector that has 0.2ppm sensitivity to R410a and I am done from start to finish in 10 minutes. No over pressure is necessary.

    I'm not saying this is a perfect system. When the leak detector is going off as soon as I enter the front door of the house, I have to switch to other methods such as ultra sonic or less sensitive detectors. But, I can say from 20 plus years of experience that 1 ppm finds ALL of the leaks with any refrigerant. Or I should rephrase that: "All of the leaks I and the customer care about." There is no such thing as a perfectly sealed system at the sub atomic level.

    0.1 ppm or better sensitivity is actually a bonus. The Testo 316-3 actually beats the high dollar Inficon HDL4000 on CFC, but it really sucks on HFC. If you don't have the right tool for the job, you are just guessing where the leak is, or just hoping that it is a big enough leak to find with an insensitive leak detector.

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    napping on the couch
    Posts
    2,032
    Quote Originally Posted by NathansHVAC View Post
    I actually looked into that. I use CO2 all the time in place of nitrogen for soldering and drain cleaning. I got tiered of lugging around nitrogen cylinders. So, I carry a bulk 20 pound CO2 refill station in my van and a 24 ounce paint ball cylinder in my tool bag.

    The only problem with CO2 is the background in the atmosphere. The base line is 380 ppm even if you don't have a leak. Mosquitos are very good at detecting variation in CO2 concentration when looking for food. But, can a mosquito or even the best CO2 leak detector tell the difference between 380 ppm and 380.5 ppm 1 ft away from a leak? What happens when you exhale 40,000 ppm of CO2?http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_C...ale_on_average

    You would have to hold your breath during the entire 5 minute leak check, which isn't very practical.

    I had to buy every single leak detector including an $8000 used inficon HLD4000 to find one sensitive to R410a/R134A at concentrations less than 1 ppm. I was actually going to lug around the Inficon HLD4000 until I found a single hand held model that is actually more sensitive to HFC refrigerant than the HLD4000. If you want a free copy of the leak detector report, just email me or buy it for $10 on ebay.

    I'm selling my Inficon now for $1,250 on ebay if anybody is interested.

    By the way, lets look closer at the CO2 leak checking numbers:

    Lets say normal holding charge pressure is 100 psi. Also, suppose you are looking for a small leak that puts out about 1ppm concentration about 6 inches away from the source. There is no wind. Also, suppose the source is the middle of a tube in the middle row of the evaporator.

    Raise the pressure to 500 psi (4X) and the leak rate is 16 times bigger (4X squared). You can see the math for this earlier in this post. I'm neglecting 14.8 psi ground pressure for simplicity.

    With the higher pressure, the 1ppm concentration turns into 16ppm 6 inches from the leak. The H10PM has a sensitivity to R410a of 20ppm when running the sensor really hot. So, if you are lucky and brush by closer than 6 inches to the leak, you will probably find the leak after going thru all the trouble (and risk) of over pressurizing the system.

    I just simply leak check with a leak detector that has 0.2ppm sensitivity to R410a and I am done from start to finish in 10 minutes. No over pressure is necessary.

    I'm not saying this is a perfect system. When the leak detector is going off as soon as I enter the front door of the house, I have to switch to other methods such as ultra sonic or less sensitive detectors. But, I can say from 20 plus years of experience that 1 ppm finds ALL of the leaks with any refrigerant. Or I should rephrase that: "All of the leaks I and the customer care about." There is no such thing as a perfectly sealed system at the sub atomic level.

    0.1 ppm or better sensitivity is actually a bonus. The Testo 316-3 actually beats the high dollar Inficon HDL4000 on CFC, but it really sucks on HFC. If you don't have the right tool for the job, you are just guessing where the leak is, or just hoping that it is a big enough leak to find with an insensitive leak detector.
    So, I'm confused. What are you using for 410?

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Elizabethtown ,KY
    Posts
    209
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    So, I'm confused. What are you using for 410?
    That's the question I came away with.
    " Go sell crazy somewhere else,we're all stocked up here.

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    75
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    So, I'm confused. What are you using for 410?
    Yeah, there was a lot of meat in NathanHVAC post. Im' just wondering (and if he knows)if the Infricon 410a leak detector he mentions is for field use or strictly lab conditions?

    In my own quest for the better 410a detector I researched Infricon my self but, for reasons that escape me for the moment, I found there to be some limiting factor that stopped me from buying a new $3000 detector from them.

    Those who know me will tell you that I spare no expense when it comes buying an instrument, especially if its to find a solution to an irritating issue like the difficulty in finding 410a leaks.

    Some guys claim no difficulty at all when it comes to 410A leaks.

    . And then there are guys who (me, for one) struggle to find them due to what we believe is bad detection gear.
    For myself I have settled on a four detectors approach that, when used as a "team", have proven satisfactory for me.

    By far my h10pm has been the best out of the FP, Testo, Infricon

    But as I said, a Co2 detector with a pump gives the best results.

    I don't understand this issue of your breath giving false positives during testing, It makes sense to me there is a threshold level programmed into to the detector to prevent false alarms.

    But not being an engineer, I cant say for sure.


    Both my H10pm and co2 tester are Bacherach products. Maybe they'll chime in on this for some more solid insight.

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