Hydro-Temp system - Page 3
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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
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    NORTHERN
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    989

    Hydro Temp winter news? hot water priority heat recovery

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisJ RI View Post
    ...s suppose to have.

    Chris
    Any news Chris?

    I did get an eM from you , but it bounced in sending reply a while ago...
    ... however, much work still needs to be done.
    CLOSED LOOP newer ratings are listed, but in numerical EER's Closed- is posted below OPEN LOOP EER's:

    http://www.energystar.gov/productfin...r=0&lastpage=1

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    22
    Well the refrigerant has leaked out again, pretty sure it's leaking in the radiant water coil. Have had problems with "air" in the radiant every winter.

    I am so frustrated, I don't have much confidence that it can be fixed to last 10-15 years. If they have to pull the unit to fix it I'm not sure I want it put back.

    Chris

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    22
    The radiant heat exchanger was changed 10 days ago. Unit is working...

    I just don't think the charge is correct, or some refrigerant has leaked out again.

    Tech put in amount stamped on unit, HT says that's a starting point and should be fine tuned with superheat.

    I'm no tech but if the manufacturer says to adjust it from the stamped weight I wish the tech had done so!

    Chris

  4. #30
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    Jun 2013
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    989
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisJ RI View Post
    .... Unit is working...

    I just don't think the charge is correct, .....
    HT says that's a starting point and should be fine tuned with superheat.

    I'm no tech but if the manufacturer says to adjust it from the stamped weight I wish the tech had done so!

    Chris

    As with any brand going through things like "new upgrade boards" every 2 years to simple cu pipe elbows leaking refrigerant at an inside bend or a critical start relay or cap or miss-wired even or
    mus-labeled- misprinted motor tag
    ANY brand name which all have suffered from the above in a/c or AirHP or Mini's or Geo-T HP's... all inclusive :::

    Some of us feel a good start up in COOLING first, knowing the btuh specs from website (BristolCompressors) characteristics, for the NOW NEEDED (as for a while) another 20 minutes with a tech--- some feel they can KNOW the performance for you, Chris.

    Water-source systems (industrial chillers to water cooled ice machines to GTHP's) have a 'neat' method of KNOWING performance by any plumber who has a temp probe and a way to determine GPM flow:

    Approx : BTUH = antifreeze constant (~ check for further accuracy for your % , etc)
    BTUH = 485 X GPM x Temp Diff (dT or Td) of the loop fluid flow --- easier than most air-source 'guessing' you CAN BE within 3% accuracy.

    The compressor website/ clean water coils, etc correlates (calibrated) readings of the refrigerant temps in a properly charged system to estimated btuh-gross heating rejected (in Cooling mode) to the then warmed loop fluid recieving heat energy while t in -cooling the air, then, temp-diff of that warmed fluids (loop asthe heat sink) can be measured pretty well.

    BTUH=constant ~ (485) x GPM x Td for KNOWING how well and efficient a start-up was compared to later repairs.
    H-T accurately starts at the label, but sometimes (2x in since 1996 working H-T) a misprint lead to going beyond just reading superheat's and subcooling's and refrigerant parameters, to the "plumber's check" as above.

    In heating : LOOSELY: a little less accurately, but with the air flows:
    Emgy Heat Mode only the toasters (KW Strip back up "ON")
    Have actual WATTS VA- noted; measure air- in at return (anywhere near a couple of feet in front of the filter rack)
    ... read downstream from the supply air a few feet away (mixed air)
    Blower on same speed as the next comparison: GTHeat only, highest speed (test buttons all the way to including supplemental 4th staging emgy strip setting blower at highest spd) but
    have the breaker to the strip heat "OFF"
    let run a good 8 minutes
    what TEMP leaves the system (no call for instant Hot Water Priority system) ?

    Air Temp rise per KW in electric heat X 3413 (VA in "K"watts) was ___________? then X's NOTHING (just keep that number)...
    in GTHP ____________? Temp rise was? COMPARE %-wise the relationship of KNOWN electrical benchmark of the BTUH
    to
    a relative GTHP (or any system in with strip heaters) btuh output.
    IF you know 10 kw was 34,000 btuh as an electrical benchmark to heat, then Temp differentials MAY tell if the unit is performing
    close to Compressor heating capacity. Chris or Scott at H-T now, can help with the correlation (or post later , for when I see it or others to comment)
    Here the refrigerant GAUGED temps giving website btuh of the compressors (two inside) BTUH will be higher than what is read in
    Air Temp difference but COMPARED to known electric heat @ 100% efficient, should be 'telling' (again compared then to refrig gauge temp readings of conditional output capacity. (if not the fluid method)
    Last edited by GT1980; 05-22-2014 at 08:02 AM. Reason: sp
    ... however, much work still needs to be done.
    CLOSED LOOP newer ratings are listed, but in numerical EER's Closed- is posted below OPEN LOOP EER's:

    http://www.energystar.gov/productfin...r=0&lastpage=1

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    NORTHERN
    Posts
    989
    too:
    If any other limit switch has a small drip of oil continuing... may have lost the best gas already:

    r410a as you may know , loses its best refrigerant of the blend that it is, first, - the highest pressure gas...
    but rather than replacing parts, just have a tech loosen the threaded limit- at the bras - nut, hub, and re-tighten per experience with hydraulics/ fittings.
    After shipping,
    ANY GTHP or AIRHP
    gets a "check all" from many companies from little electrical slip-connectors to threaded fittings, etc.

    IF
    it appears any performance requires more than a ~ 3 to 4oz "top off to good refrigeration" in a tech's mind (qualified...) for the Hydro-Temp with Priority instant HW and or radiant inclusive,
    then
    some may recommend dump the charge and fill with all new 410a... because of it being a blended refrigerant from a clean start, we are told.
    Last edited by GT1980; 05-22-2014 at 08:12 AM. Reason: ~
    ... however, much work still needs to be done.
    CLOSED LOOP newer ratings are listed, but in numerical EER's Closed- is posted below OPEN LOOP EER's:

    http://www.energystar.gov/productfin...r=0&lastpage=1

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    22
    "IF
    it appears any performance requires more than a ~ 3 to 4oz "top off to good refrigeration" in a tech's mind (qualified...) for the Hydro-Temp with Priority instant HW and or radiant inclusive,
    then
    some may recommend dump the charge and fill with all new 410a... because of it being a blended refrigerant from a clean start, we are told."

    Yes, the tech pulled out the refrigerant, 6+ lbs. Then after the repair he weighted back in that same refrigerant. Was a bit shy of the 6.11 stamped on the unit so he added some from a new container.

    Now that we are using cooling, I don't think it is performing that good. During cooling while in desuperheating mode the LAT is in the low 60'sF. Once the DHW is satisfied the ground loop takes over, LAT goes down to low to mid 50's. Which is around the EWT.

    Chris

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    NORTHERN
    Posts
    989

    GeoThermal Cooling Dual full-Priority Hydro-Temp

    howdy Chris:
    I am heading to NY for an install/design-build and back there later this summer and even Fredr.MD

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisJ RI View Post
    "IF...~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Yes, the tech pulled out the refrigerant, 6+ lbs. Then after the repair he weighted
    (a) back in that same refrigerant~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    (b)
    Now that we are using cooling, I don't think it is performing that good. During cooling while in desuperheating mode the LAT is in the low 60'sF. Once the DHW is satisfied the ground loop takes over, LAT goes down to low to mid 50's.

    (c) Which is around the EWT.

    Chris



    a) YIKES ! if the blend is not working as OEM refg't... then to really KNOW: only new goes back in, ever... from me. (410)

    b) A bit less efficient but FREE COOLING occurs for the 15 to 25 minutes PRIORITY DeSuperheating- is FUll condensing if you have the Dual Priority/ instant Domestic Hot Water heating Priority and Radiant Priority ( make sure head pressures for the end of that heating cycle are under 410 for 410refrigerant, even though it can go higher, make sure! to have some 20 year compressor longevity )
    b2) Is it taking over 25 minutes to recover hot water: 60,000-64,000 btuh Hydro-Temp older called 5-ton because they did not name by output as any variable "6-ton" sized'-er is named to date...
    Your Hydro-Temp usually should heat the HW at just like two gas 35kbh HW heaters, or a 1/2 gal per hour oil HW heater - in recovery for about 15-25 minutes, only... (3 to 4 electric 4500w HW heaters...)
    then full cooling capacity of that say 60k compressors is usually near 67,000 total cooling with ground loops under 90f entering/ 3 gpm per compressor ton (15-16 gpm there for that "size 6" other comparing is about )

    in other words a) done new; and
    b) should freeze well insulated with even walk out basements typically (guess) a 5000 sq ft home on a 90 degree day,

    ~decently having / some higher return air ducting in Northern Homes (( for heating efficiency as well as dryness in such short cooling seasons...proves doing better, to me... -- Southern opinions of "no"-high- return-air's are to be cautiously reviewed in duct designs for 3 to 5 weeks of cooling in the North~ a bit more run time means dryness, generally, per se ))
    Simply put: Low returns are a mess in heat pump northern north of zone 4 , I have reason to believe, since we also hear and see relative 5f and above successes of all the mini-split 'stories'. [horizontal air handler- gt splits mounted in conditioned areas, like large mini-splits would be, - as higher, are not-incredibly, just as inexpensive in large northern offices to home rec-areas as desired... and do more efficient cooling and heating (on better loop designs) than standing low return Air-HT-P-systems that I have try to be considerate about.]

    c) If your EW is around the 50's and the pumps are not split to run one in cooling 'til the loop is at say 60f entering (15 to 16 gpm on 5 tons of compressors (size 6) and the fan is maxed at 2350 cfm setting: 5000 sqft cooling conditioned space in humid 90f ambient is easy FROZEN, unless there is some unusual 300 sq ft of glass in direct sun- lighting the home flooring, which like some offices I have seen can mean 1 ton of compressor for every 200 sq ft of flooring in that sunlight, then, if nothing is improved.
    (Understood: all is relative to the local tech you can see 'performing" at other homes getting certain results compared to what I am thinking of/ presuming here, in this science and practice of doctoring HVAC distribution and systems.)

    ie) 95 days , average glass to insulated old 1980's homes retrofitted that are heating at about 12 to 13 btuh per living sqft at -10f to -15f winters, not using any supplemental/back-up KW Strip or wood or other fuels... are cooling well at over 800 sq ft to even 1100 sqft per compressor (label in box) ton.

    Are the return ducts and most supplies well-sealed,too?
    I have even placed tape on cabinet seems and plugged the 4 corners in units under inside the blower deck, preventing excess leakage for some analysis and found it was over 5% helpful...

    in a dry home, what's the temp drop (a $11 kichen store thermometer) just from the supply to the higher temp return air? if in the 50's; the drop is more understandable to comment -
    What does the IRD read out say the CFM is running at in the toolbox, system data, etc
    Did you get a Palm zire 31- or m515 or tungsten loaded with the Hydro-Temp software for reading out... ? Even the 2007 version works for the toolbox just fine and set-up changes at the touch of the screen and can be photo'd and posted for the 7 to 9 sensors diagnostics... comparing the sensors to a real thermometer is a good benchmarking.
    Last edited by GT1980; 06-15-2014 at 11:44 AM. Reason: tech
    ... however, much work still needs to be done.
    CLOSED LOOP newer ratings are listed, but in numerical EER's Closed- is posted below OPEN LOOP EER's:

    http://www.energystar.gov/productfin...r=0&lastpage=1

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