Hydro-Temp system

[ChrisJ RI]

4 years ago I somehow stumbled onto HT's website, their combination systems do everything I wanted, Air and water at the same time.

After 3 1/2 yrs of working very well it's now using a lot more KWH's. I noticed it during the shoulder season, when the unit is operating only to heat up DHW.

Why doesn't HT give more info on their plumbing diagrams? GT1980 mentioned in another forum that I should have been flushing my DHW heat exchanger with vinagar every year, now I will have to reconfigure plumbing so I could do flushing.

GT1980,

When the loop pump is off and the DHW is circulating in it's place, isn't that like having a ground loop running at 125*F EWT? How long will compressors last (dual compressor system) running that way?

ChrisJ

[GT1980]

Chris I read many of your threads at the other green sites

T' in a couple boiler drains into any domestic hot water heating system of any heat pump is going to keep the Mr Coffee from scumming up so it is recommended for all heat pumps with Desuperheaters and instant on priority water which hydro-temp patented

Any in geothermal heat pump manuals?

as

Just as a matter of fact I'd like to see that anyway for service on all systems

running past 310 psi for 122 deg usual re usual red lines of 290psi r22 to long term are not going are not going to last as good to where you if at only 116 degree at 4 gallons per minute per compressor ton

[GT1980]

dealer only websites f rom Hydro-Temp, AR you may want to call and ask about that

[GT1980]

Greetings again Chris:
I have reason to believe that HW Heating can equal the energy used by a mid-sized car of the 1990's (!) for a family of 4.

Do you KNOW the gallons of HW heated> in just ON-Demand Instant Priority ?

Please input more about , say, if you have the strip heat off-line entirely, as Hydro-Temp operates just the compressor and controls from another breaker(s) , usually YMK (YouMayKnow)...

See if one can read your system superheat in FORCED-AIR HEATING MODE only... for if the refg is up to par.

TYPICALLY undersized loops are an issue with H-T ((now rated- see with others, at sites in signature)) b/c the looper - designing dealer might have thought 5-T was not a size 6 loop minimum. Extremely lab-rattish, I will want to know to a tenth of a degree, what REAL peak lows enter your system ... regardless of the "150-vert-bore-(to 2010 others used) ft/ton" or other maybe-missed-designing or "experience" of the installer. Some begin to ‘change’ in dry applications.

I think it is fine if you want to go to my eM for more. –unless others are curious.
As I lay-out- Hydro-Temp double on-demand priorities with rad/ and pool and reheat like desert-aires and more -OK and well - since 2003. (and all are on simple-dependable LUXPRO 3h2c stats doing 4h 3c operations, too, with OEM recommendation across the country and CAN)

Is your Td HW under 8f? If not , perhaps work with the IRD Wireless programming setting HW to max 120 and off at 112 for a 116 outlet max , and limit to compressor # 2, for then the HW recovery of one gas-water-heater output (instead of the 2 x’s that you have enjoyed).

I will be in your town THURS (next) and thru - heading home on Mon Aug 5th again
please eM in profile, if to see you. I put in several of these and , like any W:W with HVAC, the margins are but a little narrower, all things considered.

[ChrisJ RI]

Since the DHW will have to be drained to put in hose bips, I will have the 3/4" pipes replaced with 1". My plumber didn't do what installer said to do. Although the DHW fittings on the HP are 3/4" and on the HT recommended electric water heater, so thats why the plumber thought he would be OK.

Should the 1/6 HP pump be isolated with the heat exchanger to be flushed?

Chris

[ChrisJ RI]

Not sure how many gallons of DHW, 4-5 adults in house, DHW loop includes the 55 gal electric water heater (breaker off).

Yes aux heat strip on seperate breaker (off).

"Read superheat in air-heat mode". Can that be done without putting gauges on the refrig. I hear that should not be done until other checks are done.

Chris

[ChrisJ RI]

I am pretty sure it's not under-looped. Lowest EWT at end of winter has been 35*F. 5 trenches 200' X 7-8' deep with 1" straight pipe, 1 1/4" headers reverse return.

Looper also layed pvc drip piping so water can be put in dirt about 12-18" above black pipe. So if it's possibly getting dry I can wet it.

Chris

[ChrisJ RI]

Yes I have the Luxpro stat. Works OK, tried using a 1 degree set-back last winter but still went to stage 2 to recover, even though it's set for 2 degrees below set-point kicks stage 2. Then I think it's timed to 30 min for stage 3.

DHW delta, tank max is 118*F, starts re-heating at 112*F. So yes I could save a few KWH's by stting it to re-heat max stage 2 not stage 3.

ChrisJ

[GT1980]

Hi Chris:
Been PM (preventive, preventative-maintenance) a 4 story, Comm 101; and replacing compressors on others' WF -Contactor/board issues..., (( when those compressor contactors are 8-12 yr old (any refg/A/C system, I sugg changeouts to avoid- arc-welded tabs of contacts that keep the compresor "on" when there is no call)
also busy: to- expensive 5.1/2yr-, failure: remv/repl controller of Danfos/SunFrost of CA variable drive of a fantastic 60w fridge that runs on 12v dc solar --- seems so common the refrigeration circuits are very good and something else takes out an A/C or Heat Pump. Here we have many brown-outs, so extra higher-voltage time-delays are added at the 230v L1 to block everything a control-transformer powers, - that is a 'Delay on Make', which delays when power glitches back "on". Just 3 min there is more than fine, seems, - found over the years.

general maintenace at my website: http://www.geopros.org/unit-maintenance.html

YOUR STATEMENTS [ ~~~ ]

[Since the DHW will have to be drained to put in hose bips, I will have the 3/4" pipes replaced ...plumber thought he would be OK. ]
You may want to first just go to DomesticHW- DHW set up in the wireless IRD programmer and reset for limiting DHW to compressor #2, and leave the lines as are, and try and read temp differential to see if it is 8 or less IN/OUT DHW lines.



[Should the 1/6 HP pump be isolated with the heat exchanger to be flushed?]
This pump actually is the circulator for the flushing: a couple sanitary hoses in a bucket of vinegar, bubbles blown into bucket- removingair, and house pressure isolated with all HW tanks powered- (gas too) "OFF"
As you are entering the manual sets of the "TEST" button on the GC RED BOARD- 24v, among four test button,
I recommend your installer contact me (profile page) or as I drive through the 2nd -5th this AUG,
---or insured tech start working with you no matter how handy you are-
and because the board access/ although separated by spacer-tin, is inches above the lethal high voltage, and power must be "on" to recirculate with being in "test mode. Any open access is also at a level a curious cat or dog can get popped with as you have probably known for years. -- Politely: Just a fact--- publicly-- sites are just not conducive to DIY/-Service call instruction. Please call someone, decide if you want to further DIY.

[Not sure how many gallons...]
reference is about gal per minute flows more importantly, for reading DHW produced temp-diff 8-deg or less at HW circulation ON-DEMAND - INSTANTLY producing HW to any water tank, generally of DHW---(if that is your reference to mine)

[...aux heat strip on separate breaker (off)]
-- will assure some knowledge of the Hydro-Temp dual compressors doing all the 3-Staging Heating/Cooling and HW (HW limited to 1 or two stages is a possiblity, but a cert- H-T -schooled or trained other, is to go over these things with you at least once on-site to completely review a programmed set up, as there are so many "glove-fitting" possibilities.

Even some techs see an ECMii VFD blower motor, and reprogram your blower to variable- although the correct setting if there are CFM listings on the back of the blower-motor rear covering,
is still multi-speed-blower,
as these pre-programmed speeds OEM, act as a high efficiency staging by three wire tapped connection.- and must be correctly set up,

ONLY please have a Hydro-Temp-trained tech, , first walk you through or make the tech go to school on the ph with the Hydro-Temp tech, not on your $, - even if at your location, as the patented board-programming and DHW Priority patents through ~ 1999 had an industry-wide affect: no one else really heard of this one/ or confusion by such as htg-joe's that it is a hydro-delta-hydro-heat, - they wanted/ but not like your HEAT-RECLAIM Priority-Instant system and such

["Read superheat in air-heat mode". Can that be done without putting gauges on the refrig. I hear that should not be done until other checks are done.] Correct: Temps and 'feels' can be first, knowing systemic absorption and flows, etc. --- to a point...

It can be usually inappropriately 'guessed' at without attaching a gauge (knowing the superheat, that is) if the trained tech KNOWS the usual clean heat-exchanger Temp Diff in refrigeration and temps are read at the 'OUT at the rfg:wtr side' as they would know what is to be expected..
and KNOWS the fluid- composition and flow -
and relative heat of absorption --- presumes OEM tables are accurate to YOUR SITUATION, etc etc...
been done,
but then has to be confirmed by situational knowledge of say tings like what even the compressor casing -points "feel like" AND COULD BE COSTING YOU 10% of electrical consumption/ let alone possible compressor loss(es)...
AGAIN this site is for generally steering back to trained , insured "pro's" who help you avoid hazards to your well being.


[........... sure it's not under-looped. Lowest EWT/enteringFluidTemp at end of winter has been 35*F...]
(politely: "sure" aint pretty, just "IS", to emphasize what I mean by 'sure'.../.)

---if the SYSTEMIC fluid flow or pressure drop across all loop circuit is indicating marginally accepted loop flow that is over 2.7 GalPerMin (GPM) in the loop piping/ per compressor-labeled TON (12000 BtuH into the compressor model number -0xx000BtuH) AND+ as your Heat-Exchangers are ALWAYS ONE-TON OVERSIZED with H-T ) and again can be compared to OEM heat absorbed - to verify, presuming OEM Heat Exchanger is free of defects in its internal shape, , one can relatively be 'sure' of things. - enter the tech into the equation, please -

[Looper ... can wet it.] Cool ! or Warm ! as the case may be.


[Yes..for stage 3]
After April 2007 usually a Georgia Controls RED Board (GCB) is found in dual compressor systems set up for either 2 or 3 Heat-Pump programmed staging. - unless indoor pool heating with Re-Heat HX coils for dehumidification control, pool water heat recovery, and DHW , etc.

I think you will find the thermostat- 1st call is just a smaller stage alone, not using the GCB-arythm and then the 2nd call from the stat goes to board which will VARY from one compressor or second or to both "on" automatically selecting based-- as a BEST -ON NEVER USING A SET BACK, and never more than 1 degree if you are out (vacating) the residence for less than 3 weeks (that's better just turning down 10 degrees in heating, etc. . and leaving heat strips / supplemental, able to work.
At the Hydro-Temp web site, dealers only, without pswd, you can review a few things.

http://www.Hydro-Temp.com/support/ad...-charging.html (politely: there is more Chris, but not going much further on this site. eM other, have me stop through, - periodical minimal expenses covered for a short 45 min. Have a couple gal vinegar and a bucket and a appliance hose from your drain valves ready.

[DHW delta, tank max (( in the top limit line, or the "shut-off" of cycle line?))
reset top limit to 118 or 120, and cycle "on" ! 106 or so, as you are PULLING from the BOTTOM of the tank, having a Y-Strainer for debris; and into the INSTANT DHW , and the sensor is installed as H-T describes. etc...
"OFF" at ~ 112f is generally then resulting in a 116 to 118 tank, single tank installs are fine--- if your top element or gas supplement adds enough heat to maintain local codes... ours is "125f minimum" to more so may prevent bacteria in HW tank from forming.

[[ this : max stage 2 not stage 3.(and generalized maintenance at my website) is for ALLOWING a higher 410 rfg temp setting without such a tidle-wave of energy surging systemically, as occurs in 3rd stage , larger 4 ton and up , unit instant HW heating ]]
NOTE-
Superheat is ambiguous reading in DHW as average GTHP techs have never seen the incredibly low suction readings on gauges that occur in INSTANT Series Flow HW Priority with Hydro-Temp's oversized HX design/ heat-recovery.. (Loop pumps off 15-20 min in Cooling Mode) - Superheat is best read in 12 minutes of high heating selected in TEST mode on board by a pro-tech, H-T Trained, or on the phone with their techs.

http://www.geopros.org/unit-maintenance.html

[GT1980]

...


ChrisJ

if RI is RI, ! I won't be there this weekend.

[ChrisJ RI]

RI is Rhode Island, IE, Southern New England. Between CT and Cape Cod.

Chris

[GT1980]

k, Chris:
please eMail or call from site info/profile... if you have a tech HP friend there too will be best at a 3way conversation. (he will interpret too). Have a Palm for programming (if not already).

[ChrisJ RI]

I have been using my own Palm to check temps and keep track of statistics.

My installer was pretty new to HT 4 yrs ago when I contacted him. I think he has only installed a couple of HT units.

I used the contact us at your site.

Chris

[GT1980]

k
getting back to that, then

[GT1980]

...used the contact us at your site.

Chris

Chris:
At the moment I will have to fix a net issue, but you can still have your dealer there on speaker ph w/you for a review and set up.
He does not need H-T experience, just the palm ird programmer, and heat pump experience.

Ask him if he wants a free tech-tech meeting of the minds (schooling, for not charging you) or what you may choose to afford.

[ChrisJ RI]

Thanks Jon,

Will probably have to get HT involved.

The DHW pump is running all the time that the A/C is running, even running at the same time the ground loop pump is running. It's using over 30 KWH's a day. I don't ever see that much except for winter when Radiant is running.

Chris

[GT1980]

Thanks...

...that the A/C is running, even running at the same time the ground loop pump is running. ... running.

well if you have a hp tech there, then I would also have the palm charged and reading the toolbox and setup downloaded to the palm... ready for 'action' instruction.
but also if you could double check to see if in high speed (3rd stage) there is an appropriate "superheat'" checked against Disch/hot-gas, superheat (both on the sensors at a click, you would know if it is undercharged by general temp readings and diff of the loop temp and/or water heating diff full condensing temp without gauges as much to be attached.

You may text or eMail the readings, but I will look to get a call with a tech there or call H-T as you desire.
I am missing the link from the website thought in place, and reworking that in a couple days.

Please have the tech there as one would be poking about within inches of lethal voltage (really any ac over 30 volts , well connected, can kill a human, regardless of all the electrical "hit" stories heard and seen, that our dried old dirty pinkies experienced)

[ChrisJ RI]

Tech coming out on monday to check unit, possibly low refrigerent.

When I told him lowest LAT 55-56*F all summer and running 2nd & 3rd stage when outdoor temps low to mid 80's. Said it sounds like it could be low.

From Palm pilot when running 3rd stage heating DHW
comp: 71.3* 209.8* 138.5 dT
loop: 68.7* 66.8 1.9
loop coil 67.6*
DHW sensor 117.2*

I printed out Hydro-Temps charge procedures, installer said his "lead tech" is "up to speed" on HT units.

Chris
I am just worried...

[ChrisJ RI]

I have an electric meter in the utility room connected to the heat pump that tracks the KWH usage.

I was going to post my excel spreadsheet where I have been tracking daily KWH usage, about 2 1/2 yrs worth. Forum doesn't allow excel files.

During shoulder months, basicly just running to heat DHW, I was seeing double the daily KWH's compared to previous years. That made me think it was a fouled heat exchanger.

A/C all summer has used almost 30% more KWH's daily. Previous 2 summers it used a max of 20 KWH's in a day only during hottest days. This summer, almost everyday over 20, saw max of 32 a few days.

Chris

[ChrisJ RI]

Tech found low pressure switch with oil dripping from it. They will order the part and come back.

Chris