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  1. #1
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    More attacks on seperation of church and state

    As if it is not bad enough that anti-Christian and other anti-religion groups keep getting away with banishing the ideals of those of faith with laws that are irrelevant to the U.S. Constitutions requirement of a seperation of church and state, it sure doesn't help any to have the RCC trying to get back to their medieval status of controling government. Both factions are attempting to replace the big "G" (God) with the little "g" (government). http://news.yahoo.com/religious-coll...191440814.html

    Immigration is a matter for the state, not any church or other religious organization. If "we the people", collectively agree on what a religious organization stands for, then "we the people" can make that stand "law". For the Catholic Church to decide to pressure politicians into making laws based on what the Catholic Church believes in; God help us!
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  2. #2
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    As a Christian, I am ashamed of the hyprocracy within some large denominations... it is not much different than greed and lust for power we see in govt. But then... the common factor is humans who have their eyes on themselves, rather than God (polecats may have a meager excuse, however church leaders are supposed to know to do the latter).

    Watching a large religious group try to influence govt, reminds me of why the founders outlawed mixing govt and religion... they were wise men... we would be the better if we carefully studied what they thought:

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  3. #3
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    The constitution does not seperate church and state the way progressives and liberals try to claim. It only prevents the government from creating an official religion. There is noting preventing a church from taking a position on an issue and attempting to influence the government. There is nothing preventing a minister from preaching sermons about political issues and recommending its members cast a vote for or against a particular position.

    Read the constitution. It prohibits government not a religious group or organization. A chruch has the same right to take a position on a political issue as any other organization may.

    Hugh

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    There is noting preventing a church from taking a position on an issue and attempting to influence the government. There is nothing preventing a minister from preaching sermons about political issues and recommending its members cast a vote for or against a particular position.
    A chruch has the same right to take a position on a political issue as any other organization may.

    Hugh
    I agree with this.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by geerair View Post
    I agree with this.
    I am in absolute shock!!!!!! I am speechless!! I never expected you to show up and and agree with me on that in particular. I guess there is some hope for you geer.


  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    I am in absolute shock!!!!!! I am speechless!! I never expected you to show up and and agree with me on that in particular. I guess there is some hope for you geer.

    Well hell, the Constitution is the Constitution be you atheist or theist.

    Anyway, in the rare case when a conservative does manage to get something right I will acknowledge it.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    The constitution does not seperate church and state the way progressives and liberals try to claim. It only prevents the government from creating an official religion. There is noting preventing a church from taking a position on an issue and attempting to influence the government. There is nothing preventing a minister from preaching sermons about political issues and recommending its members cast a vote for or against a particular position.

    Read the constitution. It prohibits government not a religious group or organization. A chruch has the same right to take a position on a political issue as any other organization may.

    Hugh
    I understand the intent of the constitutions calling for a seperation of church and state, as well as how all factions attempt to manipulate the intent of the constitution. It is still just as despicable for a religious organization in the U.S. to attempt to influence laws by pressuring members of those organizations as it is for those who deny God to influence laws that oppress those of faith.

    For those of faith, especially the Christian faith, we should be more in tune with how Jesus Christ handled what government does and give that which belongs to Caesar to Caesar.

    If politicians of any theological faith allow their chosen religious organizations to dictate how those politicians vote, I will never again vote for any politician with any theological conviction. THAT!....is seperation of church and state.

    If Catholics want to save those who commit illegal acts against the state by coming into the U.S. illegally, they can sure as hell go to Mexico and Canada and take care of those illegal immigrants outside of the U.S.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    I understand the intent of the constitutions calling for a seperation of church and state, as well as how all factions attempt to manipulate the intent of the constitution. It is still just as despicable for a religious organization in the U.S. to attempt to influence laws by pressuring members of those organizations as it is for those who deny God to influence laws that oppress those of faith.

    For those of faith, especially the Christian faith, we should be more in tune with how Jesus Christ handled what government does and give that which belongs to Caesar to Caesar.

    If politicians of any theological faith allow their chosen religious organizations to dictate how those politicians vote, I will never again vote for any politician with any theological conviction. THAT!....is seperation of church and state.

    If Catholics want to save those who commit illegal acts against the state by coming into the U.S. illegally, they can sure as hell go to Mexico and Canada and take care of those illegal immigrants outside of the U.S.

    I can disagree with the specific position the Catholic Church may take while upholding their right to freely express it and even petition our government.

    Christ did not live in a republic form of government. We all, christians and non christians have the right to petition our government. Ministers have the right to preach on a particular issue as priests do as well. I can choose to join an organization (even a chruch) that promotes a particular political view.

    None of this has a thing to do with the separation of chruch and state. The only thing the constitution does is prohibit congress from establishing a governmental supported church.

    Hugh

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    I can disagree with the specific position the Catholic Church may take while upholding their right to freely express it and even petition our government.

    Christ did not live in a republic form of government. We all, christians and non christians have the right to petition our government. Ministers have the right to preach on a particular issue as priests do as well. I can choose to join an organization (even a chruch) that promotes a particular political view.

    None of this has a thing to do with the separation of chruch and state. The only thing the constitution does is prohibit congress from establishing a governmental supported church.

    Hugh
    If government enacts laws because a religious organization dictates to politicians of that religion to do so, the state most certainly is supporting church. I realize the fine line here. It is despicable of the Catholic Church to even attempt to dictate state policy.

    With such a non-defined subject as the intent of the constitutions reason for mentioning a seperation of church and state, how you see it in detail is no more valid than how I see it. So stop trying to make it sound like you or understand something that others don't. It is the non-descript way seperation of church and state is stated in the constitution that has allowed for the problems that anti-theological organizations have caused for those of us of faith.

    If the Catholic Churce wants to preach to Catholics to work together to change immigration laws, that is one thing. To go directly to Catholic politicians and tell them to change immigration laws is despicable. It may not be illegal, and it may be the right of the Catholic Church to do it, but it is still no less despicable than how anti-theological organizations have acted.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    If government enacts laws because a religious organization dictates to politicians of that religion to do so, the state most certainly is supporting church. I realize the fine line here. It is despicable of the Catholic Church to even attempt to dictate state policy.

    With such a non-defined subject as the intent of the constitutions reason for mentioning a seperation of church and state, how you see it in detail is no more valid than how I see it. So stop trying to make it sound like you or understand something that others don't. It is the non-descript way seperation of church and state is stated in the constitution that has allowed for the problems that anti-theological organizations have caused for those of us of faith.

    If the Catholic Churce wants to preach to Catholics to work together to change immigration laws, that is one thing. To go directly to Catholic politicians and tell them to change immigration laws is despicable. It may not be illegal, and it may be the right of the Catholic Church to do it, but it is still no less despicable than how anti-theological organizations have acted.
    I don't view churches or religious organizations as any different than unions or corporations for example. They all attempt to influence political leaders. That is how the system works. You and I have a vote and organizations also enlist their members and work to influence congress. They are all the same. I am a member of the NRA and I want them to represent me and influence congress. I don't see any difference between the NRA influencing congress than the unions or the Catholic Church.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    If government enacts laws because a religious organization dictates to politicians of that religion to do so, the state most certainly is supporting church. I realize the fine line here. It is despicable of the Catholic Church to even attempt to dictate state policy.

    With such a non-defined subject as the intent of the constitutions reason for mentioning a seperation of church and state, how you see it in detail is no more valid than how I see it. So stop trying to make it sound like you or understand something that others don't. It is the non-descript way seperation of church and state is stated in the constitution that has allowed for the problems that anti-theological organizations have caused for those of us of faith.

    If the Catholic Churce wants to preach to Catholics to work together to change immigration laws, that is one thing. To go directly to Catholic politicians and tell them to change immigration laws is despicable. It may not be illegal, and it may be the right of the Catholic Church to do it, but it is still no less despicable than how anti-theological organizations have acted.
    And IMO here is an example of the difference between the Spirit and letter of the law.

    The Spirit is the intent, the letter is babbling with definitions and spin.

    IMO the INTENT is what is of importance.

    Example: The intent of 'shall not be infringed' is clear as sunshine... unless one is a lawyer polecat who thinks they are above the law and can change it by spinning the words.
    The intent was: NO (end of discussion)... in GA's opinion: NO, PERIOD. Now what is sooo hard to understand about intent?
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    If government enacts laws because a religious organization dictates to politicians of that religion to do so, the state most certainly is supporting church. I realize the fine line here. It is despicable of the Catholic church to even attempt to dictate state policy.
    I believe dictate is an inappropriately strong word and hysterically overstates the situation.

    This is a group of college presidents sending a letter to Catholic congressmen, not the Inquisition.

    As Hugh wrote and I agreed, this is a constitutionally approved action.

    I am the first person to denounce religions that violate the establishment clause. in this case there is no violation and the presidents are merely exercizing their constitutional rights to petition the government and its representatives.




    With such a non-defined subject as the intent of the constitutions reason for mentioning a seperation of church and state, how you see it in detail is no more valid than how I see it. So stop trying to make it sound like you or understand something that others don't. It is the non-descript way seperation of church and state is stated in the constitution that has allowed for the problems that anti-theological organizations have caused for those of us of faith.
    Actually the problems are not caused by what you mistakenly label "anti-theological organizations" but rather by theological organizations and individuals violating the constitution.

    If the Catholic Churce wants to preach to Catholics to work together to change immigration laws, that is one thing. To go directly to Catholic politicians and tell them to change immigration laws is despicable. It may not be illegal, and it may be the right of the Catholic Church to do it, but it is still no less despicable than how anti-theological organizations have acted.
    Oh hell, every religion and religious organization in the land tries to influence politicians and legislation.

    Happens every day.

    I would say your dislike of the Catholic Church is the primary motivation rather than any perceived violation of the establishment clause.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    I understand the intent of the constitutions calling for a seperation of church and state, as well as how all factions attempt to manipulate the intent of the constitution. It is still just as despicable for a religious organization in the U.S. to attempt to influence laws by pressuring members of those organizations as it is for those who deny God to influence laws that oppress those of faith.

    For those of faith, especially the Christian faith, we should be more in tune with how Jesus Christ handled what government does and give that which belongs to Caesar to Caesar.

    If politicians of any theological faith allow their chosen religious organizations to dictate how those politicians vote, I will never again vote for any politician with any theological conviction. THAT!....is seperation of church and state.

    If Catholics want to save those who commit illegal acts against the state by coming into the U.S. illegally, they can sure as hell go to Mexico and Canada and take care of those illegal immigrants outside of the U.S.
    On this Robo, you and I are in agreement.

    Spreading the Gospel of Christ has nothing to do with getting involved in politics.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

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    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

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