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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    80
    Quote Originally Posted by joebear View Post
    this stuff {r22 replacements} is going to get out of hand,with so many flavors now and everybody using different ones and no one marking on the unit what juice is inside,how many flavors you gotta carry around
    I agree, but at the same time I wanted to try some and they were begging me to find something less expensive. I always label my systems when converted.

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    So. Cal
    Posts
    58
    Is this the drop in that you gotta change all the rubber valve cores and caps or it will eat them? Just checking cause it happened on a system that my company converted, but cant remember exactly which replacement it was.

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    80
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaronn View Post
    Is this the drop in that you gotta change all the rubber valve cores and caps or it will eat them? Just checking cause it happened on a system that my company converted, but cant remember exactly which replacement it was.
    They do recommend it.

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    12,650
    That may very well be true - but I sure do get a kick out of doing it. <g>

    PHM
    -------


    Quote Originally Posted by jayguy View Post
    . . . All the time and money that you are putting in (a) unit with refrigerant that wasn't designed for it seems like a waste. R22 isn't that much more expensive especially on such a small charge unit. If you don't understand things like 'temperature glide' and txv/orifice metering designs, then you aren't doing anyone a favor by re-engineering a unit.
    PHM
    --------
    The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking.

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    12,650
    The cheap bastards Always say that! And then, somehow or other, you find yourself there still nursing it along ten years later. <g>

    I'm pretty sure that "we are closing this facility/replacing all the equipment in two years" is the commercial version of the residential customers: "can you get it through the summer because we are replacing the whole system next year." <g>

    PHM
    ------



    Quote Originally Posted by Jbart View Post
    Agreed, but this facility will be used for only about 2-5 more years before being torn down.
    PHM
    --------
    The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking.

  6. #32
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    34,239
    Have you chatted with ICOR's tech support? They have some sharp people.

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    80
    Not yet, but I will call them if I don't find a good resolution.

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    NORTHERN
    Posts
    991
    Quote Originally Posted by Poodle Head Mikey View Post
    ...'at conditions'.... readings again.

    PHM
    ------

    What U says M !

    then
    ICOR is very easy to talk all the dews and bubbles ya wanna, and they are not as confused as non-employees.

    They will share ALL the margins to see how their product sufficeth (or nuts!)

    in one app, changing to a parker 500 txv was an acceptable answer with undercharge.

    me thinks they are not generalizing all is oversized...

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    up in the hizzy
    Posts
    1,386
    Quote Originally Posted by GT1980 View Post
    What U says M !

    then
    ICOR is very easy to talk all the dews and bubbles ya wanna, and they are not as confused as non-employees.

    They will share ALL the margins to see how their product sufficeth (or nuts!)

    in one app, changing to a parker 500 txv was an acceptable answer with undercharge.

    me thinks they are not generalizing all is oversized...
    Calling Icor maybe a fantastic idea although is very unlikely they would tell you that Nu22 has lower capacity compared to the real deal and if the cooling unit was sized btu by btu to handle the building load with r-22, NU22 is not going to work on peak load days.
    Andy Schoen wrote a great article about all those r-22 wanna be blends in the RSES journal, R-22 has a enthalpy of 70btus per LB, Nu-22 is around 50btu per lb then they tell you to trim the charge to keep the pressures low, how could be possible to keep the same unit capacity using less of a lower grade refrigerant?

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    2,987
    Refrigerant thermodynamic properties don't lie.
    If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail. Abraham Maslow

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    NORTHERN
    Posts
    991

    ICOR

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Schoen View Post
    Refrigerant thermodynamic properties don't lie.
    sounds right enough to presume that.

    and but I wont presume and speak for ICOR as if they presumed a load matched or not

    I will not presume an existing A/C is under or oversized until I ask one or two or 5 questions out of 20 that could be asked to OBJECTIVELY define the lifestyle, load, use 24/7 and cyclic and approach, etc etc...

    since it was unclear as to any over sizing or under with the original, I will return to simply putting ICOR in the light they are in by being one who has called and spent a few HOURS discussing the

    hot shot and myths heard at the distribution sales counters

    NU22 , etc

    and knowing they have enough , may be that it is not all others know, but enough WISDOM to ask abot loads and sizing and other details if you open the conversation thusly:

    What do you guys think about the net compressor cooling performance at suggested application charging with NU22? (if you make time to really want to know more than hearsay)...

    for 3 decades I have questioned SIZING and LOADS
    because in water-cooled and rev cycle water-chillers making HW at a tower or an EARTH COUPLED ground loop gle, ECL

    (water) 500 x GPM x Tdiff = BTU's per hr is a pretty accurate thermodynamic relationship as represented

    in the field a typical 20 ton chiller tested Wtr:wtr , no reverse cycle like a heat-pump-chiller-HW-recovery system,
    only produced
    a net usable chilled water of less than 18 TONS @ 38-40*f 300 gallon reservoir (would time chilling ~ 12 minutes and read Td in that time and x5 for a per hour reading), while making over
    262,000 BTUH, 0r over 21.8 'TONS' of heat and on 96 E.Wtr at 54 GPM hot side 9.7 Td

    so when it comes to generally some understanding that any presented "A/C" or "CHILLING" is in a thread, I question how much matched peaks or was a resultant just tolerated, testing out systems with 3 dozen different contractors, - that TONS to one tech aint TONS to t'other...

    back to ICOR

    did ya call 'em, or jest talkin' here< > ?
    ... however, much work still needs to be done.
    CLOSED LOOP newer ratings are listed, but in numerical EER's Closed- is posted below OPEN LOOP EER's:

    http://www.energystar.gov/productfin...r=0&lastpage=1

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    12,650
    But you are talking about two different things here.

    Of course total refrigeration effect is not the same thing as total heat of rejection.

    So also of course less than 18 tons (about 209K BTU's) resulted in 262K BTU's of heating - there is no way around it. THR tends to always be about 125% of TRE. That doesn't change the fact that 12K BTU's is considered to be one ton of cooling. <g>

    And also; I learned long ago that equipment manufacturer's rating are "nominal". <g> Maybe they don't seal them well enough for shipping because some of the tons always seem to leak out on the way to the job site. Or maybe the truckers steal some of the tons because now that I'm thinking about it; you never see any lost tons laying around by the side of the road. But the tons do seem to get lost somewhere in transit - because somehow or other a 300 ton machine in the factory never seems to ever do 300 tons worth of cooling on the job. <g>

    PHM
    ------




    Quote Originally Posted by GT1980 View Post
    . . . (water) 500 x GPM x Tdiff = BTU's per hr is a pretty accurate thermodynamic relationship as represented in the field a typical 20 ton chiller tested Wtr:wtr , no reverse cycle like a heat-pump-chiller-HW-recovery system, only produced a net usable chilled water of less than 18 TONS @ 38-40*f 300 gallon reservoir (would time chilling ~ 12 minutes and read Td in that time and x5 for a per hour reading), while making over
    262,000 BTUH, 0r over 21.8 'TONS' of heat and on 96 E.Wtr at 54 GPM hot side 9.7 Td

    so when it comes to generally some understanding that any presented "A/C" or "CHILLING" is in a thread, I question how much matched peaks or was a resultant just tolerated, testing out systems with 3 dozen different contractors, - that TONS to one tech aint TONS to t'other . . . ?
    PHM
    --------
    The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking.

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    80
    I'm going back to retrofit another unit at this facility later this week. I will take more temps and pressures in existing. So far they say that the performance is very good. Ill update after

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