Smardt vs. Multistack

[ttenorio]

We are looking at a 180ton Smardt and a similar Multistack chiller. Both are water cooled and oil-less. Anyone have any thoughts?

[Abrnth3]

Not herd anything on a Smardt, unless you mean Schmidt, then I have just had 4 30 ton units installed in our processsor room. No info yet due to contractors still working bugs out. As for Multi-stack we have one newer 180 ton unit in a building seems to be working great so far. I would recommend sound dampers. This unit is extremely load when in operation.

[ttenorio]

Smardt is a relatively new company from Australia. I saw a 250 and a 180 side by side and those 2 machines were quieter than my 180 Trane! I'm just learning about the Multi-Stacks, but have not read very favorable comments in this forum. Your comments might be the nicest! How is the power consumption?

[GT1980]

A tangent chiller where Trane lost the $30k offering to $34k Budzar was due to more control-ability and redundant safeties and just a neater user interface, saving time.

Then
that 27 net chilling ton load was no longer a task for the Budzar:::

12 1" pe sdr 11 x 420 ft coils were sunk in an 11ft deep pond !
in one acre, 6 gpm run off, spring fed N. Ohio
COILS WERE
6" apart at horizontal centers (like record disc stacked but separated 2" height-spacing;

Rack of 60 ft length
1200 ft coming/going 2 " header lines in 550ft x 6ft deep ditch x 2 ft wide to each T'd off 6 coil sides of GTX-Pond exchanger

Coils are 7ft dia and 10ft ctr apart staggered in two rows

54-GPM and to 13+ deg dT 40-deg pond/ 11 deg 79-deg pond
EW
94

on a 3hp circ... saved 80% plus tech's and refrigeration...
low speed was 1.1/2hp in series piped, but never on with 3 hp running (not to overload that as a dynamic)

keep bacteria out of the open-loop process, if applicable.

the fish inhabit the coils, and debris was cleared a bit in 7 years [ in since 06/97 ] as sustainable as solar ~ .)

[GT1980]

[GT1980]

Similar to described chiller : image Above :
16 Compressor-Ton Process Manufacturer's offices and warehouse
GT HVAC and On-Demand HW/Reclaim System ( " size 19+ " by ratings ) .

Just one Grundfos 116 1/6hp for each of 8 tons alone, then 3 GF 116's for all 16 tons in cooling;

1.1hp for heating high speed.
Never below 37 deg EW to Hydro-Temp, AR GeoThermal
-water coils of less than 2 psi pressure drop loop water coils
at 2.8 gal/compressor-ton.

[NukeTech]

Smardt is a company started by former McQuay engineers to compete with the Daikin-McQuay WMC product line (Danfoss Turbocor Magnetic Bearing Centrifugals).
Multistack was purchased by Trane a few years ago (However, you may not hear anything about the Trane ownership due to the recurring problems that they have had with the units).
The Daikin-McQuay units are pretty awesome! (I am a little biased, I worked for the local McQuay Factory Service branch in Phoenix for 5 years until I took a position with the nuclear plant in January). Not to say that they have not had their fare share of issues, because they have. The vast majority of issues were with third party supplied microprocessor components on board the compressors (BMCC boards). McQuay is pretty good about warranty repairs and they have got the units dialed in pretty good in my opinion.
As for noise, they are extremely quiet. They sound like a turbo sports car spooling up. DB level no where near anything else on the market.
A bit more research would be prudent on your part.
Factory support is one thing that I would really look at when choosing a highly technical piece of equipment like the magnetics.
Good luck!

[Jarreau]

Just to clear some of the above information above, which is kinda true:

The Turbocor compressor was invented in 1993 in Australia, and the Turbocor business relocated to Montreal, Canada in 1999. The founders of Turbocor and the leaders of the technology development are Ron Conry (Danfoss) and Roger Richmond-Smith. Danfoss formed a 50:50 joint venture with the Turbocor company in 2004, when Roger Richmond-Smith retired from the business. Later that year, he formed Smardt Inc. to manufacture water cooled and air cooled oil-free centrifugal chillers which optimized the benefits of the Turbocor technologies. Smardt has a sister company in Australia, PowerPax, also owned by the Richmond-Smith family.

[GT1980]

Were any of those Australian Companies involved with the Solar Boosted Heat Pump industry?

An Ausi cous visited in 1982 discussing the govt grants his co had with that solar boosting research;
and I was selling TETCO w:w of which then one was on an oil heated basebord-boiler home, TETCO GT to as a hybrid with ss tanker tank underground (TOP-BELOW-5ft DEEP ) with drain-down solar collectors to BOOST WELL-WATER-FLUSHING-THROUGH by the customer's design, for the SOLAR tax crediting which was 50% then, GT was the "supplemental heat".
Cous discussed Solar HW then ; and I mentioned selling the r12 HW heater (later r22) 40 gal on under 1ton compressor and how TETCO w:w was all set for some solar "boosting" . Saw a "last one"? I guess of the TETCO "Blue Bombs" running in 2007... (had an amtrol 40gal HW "well vessel" on top of the w:w set up)

He became a head of Victoria's solar research of one team. Chris Dixon.

[hw chiller man]

Smardt is a relatively new company from Australia. I saw a 250 and a 180 side by side and those 2 machines were quieter than my 180 Trane! I'm just learning about the Multi-Stacks, but have not read very favorable comments in this forum. Your comments might be the nicest! How is the power consumption?

Keep in mind all the negative comments about Multistack deal with their plate heat exchanger models. When you compare the Smardt to Multistack flooded chillers, the comparison is very close. I prefer Multistack because they are very accommodating with technical info. You will not get the same level of co-operation from Smardt. The Danfoss Turbocor trainers will tell you that of all the vendors they sell their compressors to (Multistack, Smardt, McQuay, Etc.), The Multistack Flex-Sys cotroller takes the greatest advantage of Turbocor Technology.
Our company has sold and installed two Multistacks, the customers love them, and they are much more efficient than the McQuay VFD drive chillers that are on one of the sites.

[flange]

I have sold a bunch of them, and know all three brands to a degree. each has a reason to exist. the question becomes, what are your objectives and needs?

For such a small machine, you will be looking at a two compressor machine in all likelyhood. so, looking at this, they all seemingly would be similiar, howver there are differences. look at things like IPLV, refrigerant quantities, communications, isolation valves, and design compressor speeds. if you can drill down further than brand and look at these and other factors, the brands begin to differentiate. what matters is your goals and wishes.

here is an example of why things matter. if you lose a compressor, do you lose the whole chiller? If you have a leaker can you isolate or does it all go bye bye and you start over. are LEED points worth anything to you? there are a few different sizes of compressors, which can effect speed and efficiency. they dont all build them the same.

[GT1980]

Keep in mind ... VFD drive chillers that are on one of the sites.

Perhaps in selecting also consider your own multistaging/ programmable-wireless IRD
the GC red board , not usually known for specific chillers as named IS on industrial systems that chill in the wshp GT industry, regularly.
Georgia Controls IRD red board without specialized DDC interfacing (although their new VFD for VFD compressors does interface with several)
Program- can be 1st 2nd 3rd cooling-chilling;
3 powered 24v ac- though, relays with 12 + programmable settings

allows (specifically since 2007) a smaller unit + a larger + then both as for 3 staging that with a two-speed chiller drive, can easily be 4 staging without VFD expenses
and
plate heat exchangers or not can be ordered with chiller specs built by the same who built MI Carrier water cooled a/c for years, and Trane ERV to 33,000 cfm , from the same: sellers of the referenced staging GC Red Board-

but the board and sensors for inputs/outs for any 3 components of water, air, refrigerent are SMART sensors not thermisters, too.

easy reading "red board" and FYI - it just works as well , and as others named others above, here find it at Hydro-Temp Corp, AR --- common control issues for staging less expensive to maintain components than VFD, that you can even build-like yourself with the help of non-H-T groups like BENTRONIX of Middlefield Ohio who strictly have built all sorts of industrial to simple controllers and "makes things go" (large and small) ask for Brian.

(just like in vfd and single-speed staging multiple various sized compressors, too) in circulation from process and towers to ground loops: one VFD vs or/and a single speed + 2 speed pump system
keeps efficiencies screaming high and maintenance costs lower.

[klove]

Perhaps in selecting also consider your own multistaging/ programmable-wireless IRD
the GC red board , not usually known for specific chillers as named IS on industrial systems that chill in the wshp GT industry, regularly.
Georgia Controls IRD red board without specialized DDC interfacing (although their new VFD for VFD compressors does interface with several)
Program- can be 1st 2nd 3rd cooling-chilling;
3 powered 24v ac- though, relays with 12 + programmable settings

allows (specifically since 2007) a smaller unit + a larger + then both as for 3 staging that with a two-speed chiller drive, can easily be 4 staging without VFD expenses
and
plate heat exchangers or not can be ordered with chiller specs built by the same who built MI Carrier water cooled a/c for years, and Trane ERV to 33,000 cfm , from the same: sellers of the referenced staging GC Red Board-

but the board and sensors for inputs/outs for any 3 components of water, air, refrigerent are SMART sensors not thermisters, too.

easy reading "red board" and FYI - it just works as well , and as others named others above, here find it at Hydro-Temp Corp, AR --- common control issues for staging less expensive to maintain components than VFD, that you can even build-like yourself with the help of non-H-T groups like BENTRONIX of Middlefield Ohio who strictly have built all sorts of industrial to simple controllers and "makes things go" (large and small) ask for Brian.

(just like in vfd and single-speed staging multiple various sized compressors, too) in circulation from process and towers to ground loops: one VFD vs or/and a single speed + 2 speed pump system
keeps efficiencies screaming high and maintenance costs lower.

I've read all of your posts in this thread, and I have a question - do you speak English? You need to write your posts in a manner that they can be understood. I don't doubt that you have some good thoughts, but the way you put things down makes your posts all but unintelligible.

[sargent york]

Smardt and Multistack make state of the art flooded chillers, the edge has to go to Multistack due to their microprocessor. Multistack uses a LBV on each compressor to aid in starting a compressor when other compressors are on line without backing down the on line compressors. This one little addition gives them a small performance edge. I cant say enough good about the factory support from Multistack, they have a excellent factory training. All the negative feedback I've heard is on the plate and frame chillers. They are bringing out new equipment not solely based on Turbocor compressors. Big boys better move over, the worm has turned! And I'm with Klove, What is GT1980 talking about?

[allstar08]

I would disagree a bit with sargent York. I have always had excellent factory support from Smardt. The Smardts also have a LBV they just call it a hot gas bypass valve, same idea just different lingo. Both have their issues but I see the Smardt as a more progressive product they are constantly striving to make better machines. They have been known to take ideas from techs in the field and apply them to the production of their machines. The controllers on the new Smardt chillers are wonderful to work with and have the Turbocor monitoring software on them, no need to bring in a laptop. They are also XP based and can be seamlessly given an IP and be brought onto any network. I am of course biased about Smardt because I have had pretty good luck with them.

[GT1980]

I've read all of your posts in this thread...

Hi KL:

tried to abbreviate, thought enough wording was present.

on the above last 2 threads, what's not understood?

i can only answer by a line or some direction.

Customers buying me are happy with my outlines and training, so I wont know about the ones not buying.

Perhaps I am too used to specific training in facts over form.
I will adjust.

I could rewrite, but rather let me know IF you can not see a plastic lame HX in the Earth/Pond with a circulator of 1/10th to 1/9th the rfg compressor equivalent
for chilling ; and can also be used for heating/ pre-cooling to pre-heating as well.

Earth tubes for boosting temps of ambient in winter have also worke without the humidity problems until warmer humid air gets in.

I see little or no mention of very successful DDC interfacing of common dual compressors on single circuits as smaller + larger, then both for stage 3 ; and very similar and less costly than some vfd, in service to repairs, let alone sales/purchases.

Just ask what you may want clarified. Can do.

[klove]

Hi KL:

tried to abbreviate, thought enough wording was present.

on the above last 2 threads, what's not understood?

i can only answer by a line or some direction.

Customers buying me are happy with my outlines and training, so I wont know about the ones not buying.

Perhaps I am too used to specific training in facts over form.
I will adjust.

I could rewrite, but rather let me know IF you can not see a plastic lame HX in the Earth/Pond with a circulator of 1/10th to 1/9th the rfg compressor equivalent
for chilling ; and can also be used for heating/ pre-cooling to pre-heating as well.

Earth tubes for boosting temps of ambient in winter have also worke without the humidity problems until warmer humid air gets in.

I see little or no mention of very successful DDC interfacing of common dual compressors on single circuits as smaller + larger, then both for stage 3 ; and very similar and less costly than some vfd, in service to repairs, let alone sales/purchases.

Just ask what you may want clarified. Can do.

Oddly enough, I don't understand any of this, either. The only other thought processes I've encountered that even remotely resemble what's in this post was during my military service when we'd go for 5 or 6 days on an hour a day sleep. I'm still wondering if English is your first language, and I'm just dumber than I gave myself credit for being.....

[GT1980]

[QUOTE=klove;16138171]I've read all of your posts in this thread QUOTE]

if you are asking, and I am not sure, here are more complete references to the thread, though:

A tangent "chiller" of Earth-Coupled to a pond- heat-sink:
[is in response to the thread "WE ARE LOOKING" and stated as a tangent because when I used flooded evaporators in w:w single cycle "chiller" heaters in 1980; with heat-relative COP's of 4.1, in 1980, they were pretty good 34 years runnning TODAY still --- just the hybrid in a pond with plastic pipes of PE 3408 SDR 11 x 1" dia x 420 ft coils /per each of 2.1/2 tons net chilling resulted BETTER with 12 coils off of 2" headers split to two more 2" to each of 6-pipes of the 1" coils that were 7ft in diameter and put on a rack sitting on 11-13 foot depths in a pond of 40 - 76 degrees , winter-to-summer, respectively.]

and even those "chillers" of 1980 wtr:Air and Wtr:wtr with 'pretty good' HX's a ratio of 7 TON compressors to 10 TON evaporative HX
and near 20-TON air coils/ or hot-side condenser -to- water-HX 'coils'/ also tube in shell, then american standards... to get COP'sof 4.1 and more in Heat-Reclaim applications.
WERE JUST
but not as great in EFFICIENCY compared to a plastic lame HX in a pond- heat-sink, and were void of any rfg tech expenses...


as the diagram posted
there in just a 'tangent' (touching, but not in the RFG-chiller circle)
was associated as an alternate thread response, "LOOKING"...

EXPLAINED USE since 1996
was DRAMATICALLY more efficient--------ECL, gle, - using a simple and effectual Earth Coil ground-loop in a pond.

FIRST THOSE CHILLERS: INSTALLED when a process called for 27 NET cooling tons with EW 94 at over 50gpm or so]

where Trane lost to Budzar was due to more features saving time. [this references two OEM's "battling it out, and Budzar of OH got the deal... I closed it for nearly 4000 dollars (US) more than the direct selling Trane distributor...
Budzar was more of what the manufacturing client liked. (and they bought both OEM's, through the years later)
that 27 net chilling ton load was no longer a task for the Budzar:::

further some description of hook up is back at the begining posted with the pictured (HVAC -GeoThermal pond loop ECL for their offices and a size ~ 18+ total GT System).

[wolfdog]

Oddly enough, I don't understand any of this, either. The only other thought processes I've encountered that even remotely resemble what's in this post was during my military service when we'd go for 5 or 6 days on an hour a day sleep. I'm still wondering if English is your first language, and I'm just dumber than I gave myself credit for being.....

Try to read his BIO....

[klove]

[QUOTE=GT1980;16183881]

I've read all of your posts in this thread QUOTE]

if you are asking, and I am not sure, here are more complete references to the thread, though:

A tangent "chiller" of Earth-Coupled to a pond- heat-sink:
[is in response to the thread "WE ARE LOOKING" and stated as a tangent because when I used flooded evaporators in w:w single cycle "chiller" heaters in 1980; with heat-relative COP's of 4.1, in 1980, they were pretty good 34 years runnning TODAY still --- just the hybrid in a pond with plastic pipes of PE 3408 SDR 11 x 1" dia x 420 ft coils /per each of 2.1/2 tons net chilling resulted BETTER with 12 coils off of 2" headers split to two more 2" to each of 6-pipes of the 1" coils that were 7ft in diameter and put on a rack sitting on 11-13 foot depths in a pond of 40 - 76 degrees , winter-to-summer, respectively.]

and even those "chillers" of 1980 wtr:Air and Wtr:wtr with 'pretty good' HX's a ratio of 7 TON compressors to 10 TON evaporative HX
and near 20-TON air coils/ or hot-side condenser -to- water-HX 'coils'/ also tube in shell, then american standards... to get COP'sof 4.1 and more in Heat-Reclaim applications.
WERE JUST
but not as great in EFFICIENCY compared to a plastic lame HX in a pond- heat-sink, and were void of any rfg tech expenses...


as the diagram posted
there in just a 'tangent' (touching, but not in the RFG-chiller circle)
was associated as an alternate thread response, "LOOKING"...

EXPLAINED USE since 1996
was DRAMATICALLY more efficient--------ECL, gle, - using a simple and effectual Earth Coil ground-loop in a pond.

FIRST THOSE CHILLERS: INSTALLED when a process called for 27 NET cooling tons with EW 94 at over 50gpm or so]

where Trane lost to Budzar was due to more features saving time. [this references two OEM's "battling it out, and Budzar of OH got the deal... I closed it for nearly 4000 dollars (US) more than the direct selling Trane distributor...
Budzar was more of what the manufacturing client liked. (and they bought both OEM's, through the years later)
that 27 net chilling ton load was no longer a task for the Budzar:::

further some description of hook up is back at the begining posted with the pictured (HVAC -GeoThermal pond loop ECL for their offices and a size ~ 18+ total GT System).

Enough with subtlety - where the heck are you from, and what language do you speak as a native tongue?