Smardt vs. Multistack

[klove]

Try to read his BIO....

I just did. Think I'll take a handful of extra strength Excedrin and go on to work now.....

[KnewYork]

Tin foil hats, anyone?

[wbrown]

Klove-Never knew you were into subtlety...[QUOTE=klove;16184251]

Enough with subtlety - where the heck are you from, and what language do you speak as a native tongue?

[sargent york]

Allstar08. Is Smardt still using Kiltech controllers? We have one new 700 ton Smardt under contract and it has Kiltech Controller but no HGBP or LBV? As I said both brands are cutting edge, I have had a look at the new McQuay machines but not some of the other Turbocor compressor chillers out there. What kind of controllers are some of the other makers using?

[GT1980]

I just did. Think I'll take a handful of extra strength Excedrin and go on to work now.....

There's more.

i can write english too!

hahahah-

pick a line or paragraph so i can understand YUZ !

[GT1980]

a unit from the 1980's was already rated cop- 4.1
and "chilled " mutually efficiently.


a pipe in dirt chills (in a wide range, in a 40-70deg pond or hybrid/damp soil loop) at 80% to 90% utility savings...
and they will not call KB to service the water pump. nor any rfg - $ charging to keep up with r22 $50/ lb retailing...

F--O--C--U--S

"looking for" is in the first line of the thread that I am remembering.

[GT1980]

Excedrin has caffeined many before yuz.

so does Gueranah (sp?) addn to all that chocolate I grab from the unsweetened bakers can, of wich I throw in pancakes and coffee !

top off your pills with some good absorbing calcium, it pulls the synapses into what will help, too.

[flange]

Sarge, the valve is optional on the new smardt machines, and yes still using kiltech, but that may be subject to change. The newer version of the software is heads and tails over the older stuff( last year). We did some machines last year and found the program to have one really odd quirk that took several revisions ot get to go away. the new program in the last five machines has been VERY good.

They don't feel they need that valve for all applications, and honestly, I agree. most applications are fine with a drop in capacity to ramp down and back up when bringing on another pump.

[alcomech]

Tin foil hats, anyone?

I just put mine on. This one is special and has been made with an extended dome for greater attenuation and frequency reflection. It is possible that the radio frequency which he is on caused the radiation to pass over my head due to the fact that he is on a very high frequency.

If he continues with this tone of conversation its likely that we will need some form of assistance for translation or maybe he will come back to earth.

It would be much easier if he would just say what language he speaks and just maybe I could use my translator.

[allstar08]

Allstar08. Is Smardt still using Kiltech controllers? We have one new 700 ton Smardt under contract and it has Kiltech Controller but no HGBP or LBV? As I said both brands are cutting edge, I have had a look at the new McQuay machines but not some of the other Turbocor compressor chillers out there. What kind of controllers are some of the other makers using?

Yes, still Kiltech in the Smardts. You will have to let me know the details on the chiller. I thought that the HGBV was a must for staging in multiple compressors, however I have never worked on a 700 ton water cooled Smardt. The last McQuay I saw was using Carell with the Turbocors.

[GT1980]

We are looking at a 180ton ...water cooled .

Yes you may arrive at "chilling" with flat out single-minded chillers; but on the first page to clarify:

If you have any oportunity to use a pond of over 8 ft deep
and CLOSED plastic piped coils; or you have any damp soil of sufficient temperature variation to cool your process, then

Earth - Coupled hybrid chiller designs similar to what I installled in 1996 for PentAir/Structural Fiber...
Did net out ~ 30 net cooling usable tons PER 1 HORSEPOWER
at
94 EW temps.
Same has been done for servers inlieu of Liepert things, etc..

IF the soils are moist enough and all is applicable: upto 90% savings over conventional
and
dry-cooler hybrids added reduce the ground loop at times and a very small mechanical-refrigeration chiller can be incorporated.

Dr S Kavanaugh has articles all over the net on geothermal hybrid by the Source magazine articles, too.

Hydro-Temp builders for trane and carrier different systems and erv's to 200 tons as well, has some to 75 tons that can be multi stacked but patented 1981 HW reclaim like others now sell (finally)
and even double-priority on-demand instant HW recovery systems potable and non- for HIGHMASS radiant to other building zones...

[flange]

Yes, still Kiltech in the Smardts. You will have to let me know the details on the chiller. I thought that the HGBV was a must for staging in multiple compressors, however I have never worked on a 700 ton water cooled Smardt. The last McQuay I saw was using Carell with the Turbocors.

I have sold several water cooled smardt machines without hgbv and multiple compressors. its optional on water cooled, but I suspect its mandatory on air cooled, but we have only one of those. i will be quoting a second soon and will ask.

[sargent york]

Any of you ever meet Dave Johnson with Multistack? He done their start ups and troubleshooting conversions. Anyway he is now on our team. Email me if you need to contact Dave regarding turbocor related issues.

[excel]

We have 2 Mcquay WMC chillers, I guess I should say Daikin now. From what a friend who has been with McQuay for 30 years says the name Mcquay will be completely removed from them. We also have 2 Smardt chillers, water cooled. I flew back to take there service class 2 years ago, which was pretty good. My older Smardt uses a kiltech Gen 1 controller and the newer chiller has the Gen 4 with the SX cpu. I have had several issues with the 2 year old chiller and am continuing work with Kiltech to try and solve software issues. Two factory kiltech technicians flew out yesterday to continue to try to work on my problems. If anybody's interested ask and I can get into that. Then I have one multi stack flooded evap on campus. I have had good luck so far with this one. It's about 2 years old and have contacted tech support twice with great success. I do like the PLC Flexsys controller on this chiller. I have actually had great support from all three manufactures.

[Galen Manapat]

I was charged 3 years ago with advising what kind of equipment to purchase at the University of South Carolina School of Medicine to change out our 1970's Trane centrifugals.

I had only one month to crash research and say to my bosses: I like this. I don't like that. (My immediate boss was with the National Guard serving in Afghanistan)

I saw competing brands in South Carolina and North Carolina, and Turbocors in Sumter, SC and Charlotte, NC. I couldn't tour the McQuay Turbocors at Paris Island because of security rules. The two different Multistacks I saw in Charlotte were OK. One installation had to add extra pre water filter strainers because they were receiving dirty water which was clogging up strainers quickly. That solved their problem.

Nobody was cussing any of the brands. No one said "this stuff is crap". The Multistacks I saw used plate heat exchangers. I personally felt uncomfortable going with that because servicing them could have been very difficult in the future.

I eventually chose to recommend conventional tube in barrel construction and felt better with that choice. (I'm the one that has to work on it) Without "knocking" Multistack" or McQuay, I felt that Smardt had had a long head start on the control software, written by the designer.

I do not believe in fighting "The Creator".

Why go with companies who were just learning what they could do with Turbocor ?

We have had two sets of module or electronic failures on different Turbocor compressors in 30 months, repaired by Cayce Mechanical out of Sumter, SC. The factory also replaced all our modules 12 months ago with newer versions that are also more resistant to interference artifacts that come from nearby VFDs. In other words the new control modules are better filtered.

I have twin units x3 and x3 for 6 compressors total and @ 1,000 tons capacity maxed out.

The only thing I am noticing right now is when running unloaded in Dec - Jan on one compressor, we get periods where it seems refrigerant flow slows or stops traveling through the cooling block. The temp may go from a nominal 111F to 156F which triggers brown alarm and bothers me because electronics likes to remain eternally cool.

When I have time I will contact the factory and talk to them about it.

[KnewYork]

You might want to raise your condenser water temperature a little to help get a greater delta P between the evaporator and condenser. That should help with the refrigerant lift to cool the electronics.

[Galen Manapat]

You might want to raise your condenser water temperature a little to help get a greater delta P between the evaporator and condenser. That should help with the refrigerant lift to cool the electronics.

OK, I'll start by raising it 5 degrees

[sargent york]

Despite what literature says we are finding 75 is minimum.

[Galen Manapat]

Despite what literature says we are finding 75 is minimum.

======
Noted, However, remember that all centrifugal manufacturers have brought out newer designs based on different operating physics, enabled partly by using particular new low pressure refrigerant(s).

When you look at the performance/energy usage charts the amazing thing is that we are no longer "locked into" using a default incoming temperature of say 80 degrees by Johnson Controls, (or name your controls company) programming BECAUSE the total design is so different.

Now, back to the charts I was talking about. ALL brands now can take advantage of cooler incoming water. This is why they are so exceptionally efficient Oct - April. You do not want to lose that. That is a LOT of power to save your employer or facility or whatever. One of my old 1970's Trane units idled with minimum winter load drawing 160 amps at 460 volts with massive sized conductors and contactors. it was a horribly inefficient machine.

Using cool incoming water from my cooling tower, my Smardt centrifugal loads are anyware from 12 - 38 amps during winter months. If the day creeps up to 68F, so does amperage. I am taking a clue from the last two posters and I am going to experiment with slightly warmer water, monitoring the result daily. I will adjust for stability.

The factory says that you can use 12 degrees over setpoint. So my rule of thumb will probably be go up from there.

I would not arbitrarily use say, 75F degrees simply because that is way the old machine was set up. Older machine / new machine, newer design, = 100% different.

[Nuclrchiller]

Not to disagree, but I doubt a seasoned tech like Sargent York selected 75 degrees arbitrarily... . My thoughts on the subject are pay attention to what the OEM says, and adjust as needed/desired with the input of an experienced technician. That way you should reach an acceptable compromise between the highest efficiency (that the designers are after) with the greatest reliability (that techs are after). Just my two cents...