Smardt vs. Multistack
We are looking at a 180ton Smardt and a similar Multistack chiller. Both are water cooled and oil-less. Anyone have any thoughts?
Not herd anything on a Smardt, unless you mean Schmidt, then I have just had 4 30 ton units installed in our processsor room. No info yet due to contractors still working bugs out. As for Multi-stack we have one newer 180 ton unit in a building seems to be working great so far. I would recommend sound dampers. This unit is extremely load when in operation.
Smardt is a relatively new company from Australia. I saw a 250 and a 180 side by side and those 2 machines were quieter than my 180 Trane! I'm just learning about the Multi-Stacks, but have not read very favorable comments in this forum. Your comments might be the nicest! How is the power consumption?
Consult to chillin' GT for process manufacturing/testing
A tangent chiller where Trane lost the $30k offering to $34k Budzar was due to more control-ability and redundant safeties and just a neater user interface, saving time.
that 27 net chilling ton load was no longer a task for the Budzar:::
12 1" pe sdr 11 x 420 ft coils were sunk in an 11ft deep pond !
in one acre, 6 gpm run off, spring fed N. Ohio
6" apart at horizontal centers (like record disc stacked but separated 2" height-spacing;
Rack of 60 ft length
1200 ft coming/going 2 " header lines in 550ft x 6ft deep ditch x 2 ft wide to each T'd off 6 coil sides of GTX-Pond exchanger
Coils are 7ft dia and 10ft ctr apart staggered in two rows
54-GPM and to 13+ deg dT 40-deg pond/ 11 deg 79-deg pond
on a 3hp circ... saved 80% plus tech's and refrigeration...
low speed was 1.1/2hp in series piped, but never on with 3 hp running (not to overload that as a dynamic)
keep bacteria out of the open-loop process, if applicable.
the fish inhabit the coils, and debris was cleared a bit in 7 years [ in since 06/97 ] as sustainable as solar ~ .)
Last edited by GT1980; 06-26-2013 at 12:57 AM.
Reason: net tons different load ditch 550 ft long
Similar to described chiller : image Above :
16 Compressor-Ton Process Manufacturer's offices and warehouse
GT HVAC and On-Demand HW/Reclaim System ( " size 19+ " by ratings ) .
Just one Grundfos 116 1/6hp for each of 8 tons alone, then 3 GF 116's for all 16 tons in cooling;
1.1hp for heating high speed.
Never below 37 deg EW to Hydro-Temp, AR GeoThermal
-water coils of less than 2 psi pressure drop loop water coils
at 2.8 gal/compressor-ton.
Smardt is a company started by former McQuay engineers to compete with the Daikin-McQuay WMC product line (Danfoss Turbocor Magnetic Bearing Centrifugals).
Multistack was purchased by Trane a few years ago (However, you may not hear anything about the Trane ownership due to the recurring problems that they have had with the units).
The Daikin-McQuay units are pretty awesome! (I am a little biased, I worked for the local McQuay Factory Service branch in Phoenix for 5 years until I took a position with the nuclear plant in January). Not to say that they have not had their fare share of issues, because they have. The vast majority of issues were with third party supplied microprocessor components on board the compressors (BMCC boards). McQuay is pretty good about warranty repairs and they have got the units dialed in pretty good in my opinion.
As for noise, they are extremely quiet. They sound like a turbo sports car spooling up. DB level no where near anything else on the market.
A bit more research would be prudent on your part.
Factory support is one thing that I would really look at when choosing a highly technical piece of equipment like the magnetics.
Just to clear some of the above information above, which is kinda true:
The Turbocor compressor was invented in 1993 in Australia, and the Turbocor business relocated to Montreal, Canada in 1999. The founders of Turbocor and the leaders of the technology development are Ron Conry (Danfoss) and Roger Richmond-Smith. Danfoss formed a 50:50 joint venture with the Turbocor company in 2004, when Roger Richmond-Smith retired from the business. Later that year, he formed Smardt Inc. to manufacture water cooled and air cooled oil-free centrifugal chillers which optimized the benefits of the Turbocor technologies. Smardt has a sister company in Australia, PowerPax, also owned by the Richmond-Smith family.
Were any of those Australian Companies involved with the Solar Boosted Heat Pump industry?
An Ausi cous visited in 1982 discussing the govt grants his co had with that solar boosting research;
and I was selling TETCO w:w of which then one was on an oil heated basebord-boiler home, TETCO GT to as a hybrid with ss tanker tank underground (TOP-BELOW-5ft DEEP ) with drain-down solar collectors to BOOST WELL-WATER-FLUSHING-THROUGH by the customer's design, for the SOLAR tax crediting which was 50% then, GT was the "supplemental heat".
Cous discussed Solar HW then ; and I mentioned selling the r12 HW heater (later r22) 40 gal on under 1ton compressor and how TETCO w:w was all set for some solar "boosting" . Saw a "last one"? I guess of the TETCO "Blue Bombs" running in 2007... (had an amtrol 40gal HW "well vessel" on top of the w:w set up)
He became a head of Victoria's solar research of one team. Chris Dixon.
Keep in mind all the negative comments about Multistack deal with their plate heat exchanger models. When you compare the Smardt to Multistack flooded chillers, the comparison is very close. I prefer Multistack because they are very accommodating with technical info. You will not get the same level of co-operation from Smardt. The Danfoss Turbocor trainers will tell you that of all the vendors they sell their compressors to (Multistack, Smardt, McQuay, Etc.), The Multistack Flex-Sys cotroller takes the greatest advantage of Turbocor Technology.
Originally Posted by ttenorio
Our company has sold and installed two Multistacks, the customers love them, and they are much more efficient than the McQuay VFD drive chillers that are on one of the sites.
I have sold a bunch of them, and know all three brands to a degree. each has a reason to exist. the question becomes, what are your objectives and needs?
For such a small machine, you will be looking at a two compressor machine in all likelyhood. so, looking at this, they all seemingly would be similiar, howver there are differences. look at things like IPLV, refrigerant quantities, communications, isolation valves, and design compressor speeds. if you can drill down further than brand and look at these and other factors, the brands begin to differentiate. what matters is your goals and wishes.
here is an example of why things matter. if you lose a compressor, do you lose the whole chiller? If you have a leaker can you isolate or does it all go bye bye and you start over. are LEED points worth anything to you? there are a few different sizes of compressors, which can effect speed and efficiency. they dont all build them the same.
Perhaps in selecting also consider your own multistaging/ programmable-wireless IRD
Originally Posted by hw chiller man
the GC red board , not usually known for specific chillers as named IS on industrial systems that chill in the wshp GT industry, regularly.
Georgia Controls IRD red board without specialized DDC interfacing (although their new VFD for VFD compressors does interface with several)
Program- can be 1st 2nd 3rd cooling-chilling;
3 powered 24v ac- though, relays with 12 + programmable settings
allows (specifically since 2007) a smaller unit + a larger + then both as for 3 staging that with a two-speed chiller drive, can easily be 4 staging without VFD expenses
plate heat exchangers or not can be ordered with chiller specs built by the same who built MI Carrier water cooled a/c for years, and Trane ERV to 33,000 cfm , from the same: sellers of the referenced staging GC Red Board-
but the board and sensors for inputs/outs for any 3 components of water, air, refrigerent are SMART sensors not thermisters, too.
easy reading "red board" and FYI - it just works as well , and as others named others above, here find it at Hydro-Temp Corp, AR --- common control issues for staging less expensive to maintain components than VFD, that you can even build-like yourself with the help of non-H-T groups like BENTRONIX of Middlefield Ohio who strictly have built all sorts of industrial to simple controllers and "makes things go" (large and small) ask for Brian.
(just like in vfd and single-speed staging multiple various sized compressors, too) in circulation from process and towers to ground loops: one VFD vs or/and a single speed + 2 speed pump system
keeps efficiencies screaming high and maintenance costs lower.
I've read all of your posts in this thread, and I have a question - do you speak English? You need to write your posts in a manner that they can be understood. I don't doubt that you have some good thoughts, but the way you put things down makes your posts all but unintelligible.
Originally Posted by GT1980
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