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  1. #105
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    Dec 2002
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    Houston,Tx.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraziFuzzy View Post
    If that is the extent of your input to the discussion, then I'm not sure anything you've written in this thread has been of much help - bordering on reportable trolling. If that is how houston techs are, then you are right, he's screwed even thinking about it.
    Thanks for your compliments, this is why we Pro's are so far apart on some things, the condemnation we get just for disagreeing with someone that's not even in the same market area, to know the pro's and con's of installing a system like this here. I would not limit this idea of unknowledgeable techs to Houston, my guess it's prevalent in a lot of areas, except in your area. You should pack up and come down here and prove to us old dumb redneck a/c dudes how it's done, all I have heard is talk, what is it that some say, talk is cheap?
    “Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.” –Albert Einstein
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards.”-Vernon Law

  2. #106
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    Aug 2009
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    Jurupa Valley, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    Thanks for your compliments, this is why we Pro's are so far apart on some things, the condemnation we get just for disagreeing with someone that's not even in the same market area, to know the pro's and con's of installing a system like this here. I would not limit this idea of unknowledgeable techs to Houston, my guess it's prevalent in a lot of areas, except in your area. You should pack up and come down here and prove to us old dumb redneck a/c dudes how it's done, all I have heard is talk, what is it that some say, talk is cheap?
    I said nothing about anyone's knowledge level. My problem was with the way you stated your opinions in an unprofessional manner, not with the opinions themselves. If you have a concern or question about a part of the system, by all means, bring it up, and we can discuss it in a civilized manner. You never did that though. The only remotely technical statement you made was regarding the voltage used in homes compared to commercial, which I already explained has no bearing on this discussion. Scroll compressors are readily available in all voltage/phase counts, and 220/60/1ř is already the most common variety sold in the US, and I'm betting you've installed your share of them. In any event, I am confused as to what is so hard to understand about the residential chiller. I'm pretty certain you've discussed working on geothermal systems here.

    So why is it that you are comfortable with this change:


    Yet deterred by this one:



    The components are no different than the geothermal system, just connected on the opposite side of the system.

    As it stands, no matter what the merits of residential hydronic cooling, I'm pretty certain at this point the OP has long given up pursuing it further, because the seasoned professional in his local area who admitted he didn't have any real experience in it has repeatedly brushed it off as a ridiculous pie-in-the-sky idea that would never be possible/practical.
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  3. #107
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    Nov 2004
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    SW FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraziFuzzy View Post
    If that is the extent of your input to the discussion, then I'm not sure anything you've written in this thread has been of much help - bordering on reportable trolling.
    If that is how houston techs are, then you are right, he's screwed even thinking about it.

    x 2


    BUT the one's with even limited Chilled Water System Knowledge
    AND
    who know how to 'think outside of a small box'
    WOULD _OWN_ A NEW MARKET.
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  4. #108
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    Nov 2004
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    SW FL
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    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  5. #109
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    Oct 2011
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    NJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    I think before we call in NASA for their we should move off track a bit to operating costs, with a single-phase system. Of course this idea is great were you have a 600 volt 3Ph system or even a 440 volt 3Ph available.
    A 36,000 output btuh Unico chiller pulls 19 Amps at 208/230v/1 plus 560 watts for the pump. A 14 SEER condenser pulls about 23 amps at 208/230v/1. So far I'm not seeing the big deal?

  6. #110
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    Jan 2009
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    Keokuk, IA
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    If you have any space on your property or under a large driveway, you could install ground loops and go wit ha water to water geo unit. It would supply hot and cold water, then use a small boiler for supplemental heating and domestic hot water if needed. However, it might have enough capacity to do everything and not need a boiler at all in your climate, in a very well insulated home. Radiant floor heat with and air handler for cooling, ventilation and dehumidification.

  7. #111
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    Dec 2002
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    Houston,Tx.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraziFuzzy View Post
    Those consumers who visit this board, and especially those who are interested in the building science, should be encouraged to ask the questions that will further the market along, not to settle with what has already been the answer given to every uneducated potential customer by lazy minded salesmen for the last 40 years. Most of the advances in residential systems for the last 20 years (2 stage/variable speed compressors, mini-splits, kludgy zoning systems, whole home dehumidifiers, and so on) are all workarounds to the flaws in DX cooling. All flaws that are not an issue in chilled water based systems. I have not even brought up the nationwide problems of peak electrical demand, and the ease of load shifting the acceptance of chilled water provides.
    See since probably 98% of us on this board make our money selling conventional systems as the ones you degraded above, what kind of attitude are we supposed to have with this statement above? it's very derogatory. If you and your ideas want to take over the a/c world, you can do it without dissing the systems we work and sell everyday. I was just feeding you a little of your own medicine, and you begin to call me names like a troll, and cutting Houston Techs, but it did bring out your true character.
    “Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.” –Albert Einstein
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards.”-Vernon Law

  8. #112
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    Oct 2011
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    NJ
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    The OP sought Advice-for-a-High-Performance-New-Construction-in-Houston.

    In response to that we could have said add a roof venting system designed to induce draft and pull outside air through a large deep underground pipe system, then dehumidify the entering air with a liquid desiccant waterfall regenerated with hydronic solar panels using gravity and water density to move the water. I got news for you, it's been done and it would work, the entire energy use would be from a small pump to move the desiccant.

    If you then said "Good luck getting someone to design and install that." I'd have to agree with you, even though it is not high tech (or even new tech) there are issues such as condensation in the underground tubes, the harshness of desiccant damaging equipment, just how to induce enough draft, parts would not be available and would have to be fabricated, etc...such a system would have to be engineered and modeled then designed and built to detailed drawings.

    What we suggested is chilled water, used since the 1800s, applied to a residence. Thousands of contractors work with it daily in commercial work, parts and components are off the shelf and readily available and the technology is tried and tested and easily installed with just a few calculations, same as a DX system (load calcs are the same, pipe sizing is a bit different, but no big deal and air side is the same).

  9. #113
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    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vangoghsear View Post
    The OP sought Advice-for-a-High-Performance-New-Construction-in-Houston.

    In response to that we could have said add a roof venting system designed to induce draft and pull outside air through a large deep underground pipe system, then dehumidify the entering air with a liquid desiccant waterfall regenerated with hydronic solar panels using gravity and water density to move the water. I got news for you, it's been done and it would work, the entire energy use would be from a small pump to move the desiccant.

    If you then said "Good luck getting someone to design and install that." I'd have to agree with you, even though it is not high tech (or even new tech) there are issues such as condensation in the underground tubes, the harshness of desiccant damaging equipment, just how to induce enough draft, parts would not be available and would have to be fabricated, etc...such a system would have to be engineered and modeled then designed and built to detailed drawings.

    What we suggested is chilled water, used since the 1800s, applied to a residence. Thousands of contractors work with it daily in commercial work, parts and components are off the shelf and readily available and the technology is tried and tested and easily installed with just a few calculations, same as a DX system (load calcs are the same, pipe sizing is a bit different, but no big deal and air side is the same).

    From a Professional to Professional, this is the kind of response we should expect form each other, a "Professional Response" and I appreciate it, when folks work together in this business, it opens up ideas that benefits everyone, the homeowners and our trade in general. Thanks for your encouraging response.
    “Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.” –Albert Einstein
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards.”-Vernon Law

  10. #114
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    Aug 2009
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    Jurupa Valley, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    From a Professional to Professional, this is the kind of response we should expect form each other, a "Professional Response" and I appreciate it, when folks work together in this business, it opens up ideas that benefits everyone, the homeowners and our trade in general. Thanks for your encouraging response.
    You do know that was all covered four pages ago - perhaps that is why I was so frustrated by your snide responses - when we talked about it being used commercially for many years, right? And the tone was 'Professional to Professional', as you say, until you started riding the hyperbole train. The only difference between my early responses and vangoghsear's is the avatar - so i'm wondering who is drawing unfounded conclusions about whom?

    Your very first post was basically saying that no matter what the OP wanted, he was not going to find a system that works in Houston, because the 'Science' wasn't there yet. We then proceeded to show that that was completely false, and it was the market, and the residential industry, that wasn't there, not the science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    Howdy neighbor. Mr. Bear, you will find tons of good information here, and lots of great Pro's with all the science, but "bear" in mind "no pun intended" we live in the "Bermuda Triangle" of the a/c world, they haven't developed any a/c science really works 100% here "yet" but I hear NASA is on it.

  11. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraziFuzzy View Post
    The only difference between my early responses and vangoghsear's is the avatar - so i'm wondering who is drawing unfounded conclusions about whom?
    Quote Originally Posted by vangoghsear View Post
    If you then said "Good luck getting someone to design and install that." I'd have to agree with you, even though it is not high tech (or even new tech) there are issues such as condensation in the underground tubes, the harshness of desiccant damaging equipment, just how to induce enough draft, parts would not be available and would have to be fabricated, etc...such a system would have to be engineered and modeled then designed and built to detailed drawings.
    Yea, I must have missed your response that talked about some of the negatives, your right the only difference was the avatar, sorry about that.
    “Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.” –Albert Einstein
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards.”-Vernon Law

  12. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    Yea, I must have missed your response that talked about some of the negatives, your right the only difference was the avatar, sorry about that.
    The only negatives were already covered. Fewer residential techs are familiar with the system, and there are fewer companies making the chillers, leading to a higher cost. The negatives vangoghsear listed were not for chilled water systems, they were for the induced draft-liquid desiccant system.

  13. #117
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    Oct 2011
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    NJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraziFuzzy View Post
    The negatives vangoghsear listed were not for chilled water systems, they were for the induced draft-liquid desiccant system.
    Correct.

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