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  1. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bear_in_HOU View Post
    How big of a buffering tank did (do?) you use and are there any specific kinds of insulated tank that are better for this? Quick math seems to indicate that a 50gal tank provides about 10K BTU of reserves with a 72*F setpoint. Of course, there will be standby losses, and I'd expect to want/need a decent reserve for the hottest days. A very interesting idea!
    Just about any insulated tank should suffice. There is no reason it couldn't be a standard hot water storage tank. The sizing would simply affect the cycle time of the chiller, ideally. Larger tank, longer cycle times. Comfort levels would be unaffected either way, just so long as it is piped correctly. (Ideally, the air handler would always see the ~42°F water). The amount of buffer for a given sized tank is a function of the difference between the chilled water supply and return temps. Larger temp difference, and the more BTU's a given gallon of storage will provide. A taller/skinnier tank will provide a better stratification between the cold supply water at the bottom and the warm return water at the top.

  2. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    Famous last words! My first question might be, were is he going to find someone in Houston to do this? after you answer this, I have another question for you.
    We did already discuss that in this very thread. The goal would be to find a company that does both residential and commercial work - that would at least get a residential tech that isn't afraid of water. He also already contacted unico (who actually specialize in this exact same thing) to find a dealer in his area. You are proving the exact reason (a completely non-technical reason) why there is little chilled water in the residential market - if the pro's don't even understand why it should be used, the manufacturers aren't going to jump onto it.

  3. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraziFuzzy View Post
    You are proving the exact reason (a completely non-technical reason) why there is little chilled water in the residential market - if the pro's don't even understand why it should be used, the manufacturers aren't going to jump onto it.
    So it's my fault, if I am just asking questions about some non existent "in Houston", hypothetical system, that probably has less than 1% of the market, and not even the city of Houston inspection crew would even know how to inspect? You don't know me well enough to judge me, I have built computers of all kinds as a hobby for the past 20 years, just because I do like to stay on the cutting edge of modern technology, stereotyping folks never helps any progress period.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

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  4. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraziFuzzy View Post
    if the pro's don't even understand why it should be used, the manufacturers aren't going to jump onto it.
    So we are responsible for creating the demand? I don't have the advertising dollars to do this, who/what created the demand for conventional a/c systems? I would say the heat did, not us.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

    "Never let success go to your head, and never let failure go to your heart". - Unknown

  5. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bear_in_HOU View Post
    How big of a buffering tank did (do?) you use and are there any specific kinds of insulated tank that are better for this? Quick math seems to indicate that a 50gal tank provides about 10K BTU of reserves with a 72*F setpoint. Of course, there will be standby losses, and I'd expect to want/need a decent reserve for the hottest days. A very interesting idea!
    We had a lot of system volume contributing as well. We used oversized 2" headers all through the 1st floor and had quite a length of run outs (light institutional project). I think it was about a 30 gallon tank, but overall we ended up with around 10 gallons per ton, which is okay capacity for comfort cooling when precise control is not important. Don't try for as much diversity as I used I had major load shifts, a dining hall, meeting rooms, and 18" walls in my building, when people were in the dining hall they weren't in their offices. A large tank allows you to run the temp down in the system water during nighttime when it's generally cooler and no sun load on the building. You may be able to set the controls to take the tank water down extra low at night before the load increases again.

    Most of the companies I would use for equipment such as the tank would be commercial, such as Wessels, or John Wood. These are going to be ASME rated and require PR valves (my commercial customers require it often even when not required by code, I'm not familiar enough with residential to know at what size it becomes a requirement).

    There may be some mechanical contractors that do hydronic solar, that may also do this type of installation in your area. The components including the storage aspects, expansion and air control and freeze protection requirements, are very similar.

  6. #97
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    I think before we call in NASA for their we should move off track a bit to operating costs, with a single-phase system. Of course this idea is great were you have a 600 volt 3Ph system or even a 440 volt 3Ph available. Maybe operating costs might be such a contrast, between water and conventional systems on the 1Ph market, might be why the mfg. have not invested R&D into this application. There must be some reason, I am not buying it's us.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

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  7. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    So we are responsible for creating the demand? I don't have the advertising dollars to do this, who/what created the demand for conventional a/c systems? I would say the heat did, not us.
    Your comment directly creates a negative demand effect. You make the assumption that it is too expensive to come to reality, implying it would cost more than the house. When I challenged that assumption, and requested clarification, you got even more sarcastic, stating that the customer will never find anyone in houston to do it (when there are likely 100's of thousands of chilled water systems purring away in the greater Houston area). High end A/C systems are sold by small companies and the techs that install them.

    Those consumers who visit this board, and especially those who are interested in the building science, should be encouraged to ask the questions that will further the market along, not to settle with what has already been the answer given to every uneducated potential customer by lazy minded salesmen for the last 40 years. Most of the advances in residential systems for the last 20 years (2 stage/variable speed compressors, mini-splits, kludgy zoning systems, whole home dehumidifiers, and so on) are all workarounds to the flaws in DX cooling. All flaws that are not an issue in chilled water based systems. I have not even brought up the nationwide problems of peak electrical demand, and the ease of load shifting the acceptance of chilled water provides.

  8. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    I think before we call in NASA for their we should move off track a bit to operating costs, with a single-phase system. Of course this idea is great were you have a 600 volt 3Ph system or even a 440 volt 3Ph available. Maybe operating costs might be such a contrast, between water and conventional systems on the 1Ph market, might be why the mfg. have not invested R&D into this application. There must be some reason, I am not buying it's us.
    Are you thinking this is installing a 400 ton centrifugal chiller here? The only component that is different between a residential mini-split, and these chiller systems, are the evaporator. The pumps used in these system are highly available - even in the exotic 120V-60Hz-1ř found in homes - made by large companies (watts, Taco, B&G, etc). Again, you are making assertions that it will be expensive, and stating high operating costs, without saying WHY you feel that way. This is a classic example of how FUD affects the marketplace, and the advancement of technology.

    I feel the biggest reason the 'old school' techs are against this, is because the chillers themselves are too much of an appliance, with no refrigeration work required for the install - which means if they DO make it into the market, joe handyman will be able to easily install them.

    Perhaps you should contemplate the meaning of your signature: "The critic is a prisoner to his own experiences and perspectives, erroneously believing his limited experiences are the sum of all truth".

  9. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraziFuzzy View Post
    Those consumers who visit this board, and especially those who are interested in the building science, should be encouraged to ask the questions that will further the market along.
    And I agree! but if it were me no matter how scientific I was about it, I would like to see both the pros and cons of something like this, so I could make a decision based on my ability to understand. I am not saying this application will not work in a residential application, I just would like to know why it has not been implemented into the market more, and as I said I am not buying it's our fault. If the application is really worthy of all your fuss, and is more economical, and just makes better sense than all the newer technology conventional systems, maybe you should petition the White House to get your message out. They might even make up some high paying job to give you, this is what they do anyway right?
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  10. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraziFuzzy View Post
    Perhaps you should contemplate the meaning of your signature: "The critic is a prisoner to his own experiences and perspectives, erroneously believing his limited experiences are the sum of all truth".
    So trying to draw a few conclusions on the pros and cons of these systems, have now categorized me as a critic, and an old school tech that don't want to seek a better heating or cooling application for the residential market? Ok you win, I will just relax and read.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

    "Never let success go to your head, and never let failure go to your heart". - Unknown

  11. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    And I agree! but if it were me no matter how scientific I was about it, I would like to see both the pros and cons of something like this, so I could make a decision based on my ability to understand. I am not saying this application will not work in a residential application, I just would like to know why it has not been implemented into the market more, and as I said I am not buying it's our fault. If the application is really worthy of all your fuss, and is more economical, and just makes better sense than all the newer technology conventional systems, maybe you should petition the White House to get your message out. They might even make up some high paying job to give you, this is what they do anyway right?
    So contribute to the discussion. state the cons in a non-sarcastic, and scientific tone, without resorting to hyperbole about NASA, the President, and systems costing more than the house. This is AOP, not ARP.

  12. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraziFuzzy View Post
    This is AOP, not ARP.
    Wow! I knew I missed my turn off Well as long an he can find someone to service his new system, maybe he should set an example for the Houston market. Then I can go by and see how happy he is with his new investment, and possibly start selling these systems. This is about as scientific as I can get, but I can cook a good rib-eye if this helps.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

    "Never let success go to your head, and never let failure go to your heart". - Unknown

  13. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    Wow! I knew I missed my turn off Well as long an he can find someone to service his new system, maybe he should set an example for the Houston market. Then I can go by and see how happy he is with his new investment, and possibly start selling these systems. This is about as scientific as I can get, but I can cook a good rib-eye if this helps.
    If that is the extent of your input to the discussion, then I'm not sure anything you've written in this thread has been of much help - bordering on reportable trolling. If that is how houston techs are, then you are right, he's screwed even thinking about it.

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