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  1. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Sonora, California, United States
    Posts
    1,056
    I rarely do a maintenance and find nothing wrong, some of the newer installs that came from new construction I tend to find less, but older equipment and ductwork I generally run into problems. but with that being said I go through the whole system, in the attic, under the house I dont care, ive found more ductwork problems from rodents and duct tape then I can believe. then theres a very thorough work sheet I go through, from amps, electrical, disconnect, capacitors, pressures, temps, subcooling/superheat, static pressure, and many other tests that my equipment does simply by poking a couple holes in your ducts/plenums, but to be honest a good trained eye will catch and look at ten times whats on that paper. But there is more, or should be more involved in a maintenance plan, like priority calling, atleast 10% or more discount on parts and labor, a warranty on parts the company replaces on your system, discounts on upgrades you might decide to make, things of that nature.

  2. #41
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,739
    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post

    As I said: This idea of consumerism strictly by the numbers... is not a good idea. Here is an example: In my area we do not have extreme (as compared to other parts of the USA) weather; design temps are 22 and 92... not exactly HOT or COLD. Literally NO high efficiency equipment will have a reasonably payback, it is about comfort. So what would a 'by the numbers' consumer do... they would buy the cheapest system from the cheapest hack to install it... then wonder why it did not work right and needed endless service. Do you see how this 'by the numbers' thing is not reality...

    OTOH: GA (myself) sells more VS furnaces than standard, and a lot of 16 SEER 2 stage AC to go along with the VS furnace (VS furnaces are all 2 stage heat). Here is a question for you Tedd... why do folks, KNOWING there is not going to be a financial payback, buy the high end system?
    All I sell is high end. Infinity hybrids, Greenspeeds, now shifting to Am Std Hybrids. Did I say anything about payback? Payback is for people who have trouble adding 2 + 2.

    I like to solve problems with the money people are willing to spend, and leverage energy savings into that budget. Brendan Ried put it better than I could:

    If you have the right customer, all they are looking for is reassurance that the money to invest to make their house and little Suzie's asthma better is coming out of the utility company's pocket (over time), not theirs. You don't have to go to the tenth decimal place on estimating savings and ROI.

    If there's no comfort or IAQ or ice dam or mold or building durability or allergy or dust on the furniture PAIN and the only issue is "what's the ROI on energy savings" then you are wasting your mutual time.

    And if you can't uncover that emotional pain and bring it to the forefront when doing an assessment you should leave this opportunity to the pros.
    http://bit.ly/flamingLinkedInthread

    Back to the topic at hand. The numbers I want to see from the service guy AREN'T "what's the payback", they're the stuff Jacob is doing. They are CO, CO2, O2, static pressures, temp rise/drop.

    If you chart those over time, they should help you understand when the system is starting to be unhappy, and if you aren't paying attention, seems a simple opportunity to better serve has been thoughtlessly walked past.

    And for me, I get an idea what's going on with the equipment and if you did more than vacuum and change the filter. When the homeowner asks the question about their service guy I can tell them "it looks like this guy is working for his money rather than playing words with friends in your basement."

    Guys, I may not be coming to a house near you soon, but someone like me is. I'm happy to refer your customers to my friends. Don't make your service agreement customers an easy grab.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  3. #42
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    21,404
    Tedd.... you would be amazed at how FEW folks down here would even allow you to spend the time to do all that... they just do not care. What they care about is having someone they TRUST to be honest with them and keep it running so they feel good. Simple as that. And if one talks the tech stuff too much, they will respond by changing the subject (to something anal like the weather or sports)... and next time call someone else.

    While we all try our best to do the highest quality we can... there is this principle of not throwing your pearls before a pig... A pig has NO IDEA what a pearl is... and after sniffing it and deciding it is not food... will trample it with reckless wanton.

    Gotta adjust your service to the customers as well as cherry pick your customers dude... that is the way one makes their business more profitable than working for someone (total income, including benefits and retirement fund).

    OTOH: I fully understand you are in a different market than I am... each of us has to assess our market and decide what we are going to offer. I can tell you this: I have a couple of friends who are TOP NOTCH home inspectors... (one has received an award 3 years in a row for best small business in his township). Each of them decided to get certified... one went BPI, the other went RESNET. BOTH of them told me it was a waste of time and $$$... the market is just not there. Now we are talking about folks who make a NICE (read that serious $$$) living from ONLY doing home inspections... so these are not slouches or misfits.

    Bottom line... In my area... someone who does testing at an extreme level (extreme for my area) is not in demand... it is just the marketplace. What IS in demand is to make little Johnny or Susie breathe and sleep better... and lower energy bills.

    As I said... one has to evaluate their market and decide what to offer.

    Cheers Tedd.... enjoy the rest of the weekend.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Anderson, South Carolina, United States
    Posts
    7,430
    I agree with GA, but there IS an increasing demand for home energy audits and tuning existing systems properly and like it or not it will be required if not already for new construction. Its not a matter of if, but when even for residential retrofits.

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    21,404
    Quote Originally Posted by jtrammel View Post
    I agree with GA, but there IS an increasing demand for home energy audits and tuning existing systems properly and like it or not it will be required if not already for new construction. Its not a matter of if, but when even for residential retrofits.
    In GA (state) new construction has lots of requirements (blower door and duct blaster)... GA (myself) is certified to do both those tests, even though I do not do RNC. I ran a blower door on my home and used my IR camera to 'snoop out' the infiltration leaks... it was an interesting experiment and experience. Learned a LOT about the short-comings of my home.

    I fully agree with the idea of lowering energy costs in homes... so we do not have to build more power plants... makes good 'green' sense to me.

    Tedd, I did not know you were a licensed HVAC person? I thought you were exclusively in the tester/inspector business.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    West Monroe, LA
    Posts
    1,535
    In my expersene if a Customer sees what they are paying for and how it can help them with routine maintance they will pay for annual contract.

    If a company goes out and does a dog and pony show washes the condener and just checks refrigerant levels but nothing else the customer sees no value.

    If a company come out and checks everything at the condenser, takes the top off and cleans the inside of the condener coil as well as the outside along with removing any debris in the unit and goes through a checklist. Then writes up detailed ticket the customer sees the value.

    As for the companies that just go out and do very little and write a shot ticket the customer sees no value and thinks what am I paying for? They think why do I need this I can do this myself. Just saying that you have to make it worth it for the customer.

    We have right at 800 service agreement customers for plumbing and hvac and they are very important. Maintance leads to service and service leads to install.

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Sonora, California, United States
    Posts
    1,056
    Quote Originally Posted by duckman06 View Post
    In my expersene if a Customer sees what they are paying for and how it can help them with routine maintance they will pay for annual contract.

    If a company goes out and does a dog and pony show washes the condener and just checks refrigerant levels but nothing else the customer sees no value.

    If a company come out and checks everything at the condenser, takes the top off and cleans the inside of the condener coil as well as the outside along with removing any debris in the unit and goes through a checklist. Then writes up detailed ticket the customer sees the value.

    As for the companies that just go out and do very little and write a shot ticket the customer sees no value and thinks what am I paying for? They think why do I need this I can do this myself. Just saying that you have to make it worth it for the customer.

    We have right at 800 service agreement customers for plumbing and hvac and they are very important. Maintance leads to service and service leads to install.
    X2, when i started with this new company they about 5 maintenance plans, ive sold just over 75 contracts in 4 months and we arent cheap, but when i explain to customers the things I do on a maintenance plan they want me out. and when im doing all this stuff if I can get them involved I will, if their willing to sit there with me I explain the entire thing to them. and they are damn happy to give me a check when im done cause they SEE and HEAR what im doing and they got something in hand that makes them FEEL like they got a great service. SO MANY customers say wow the last guy didnt do all that. ....up until I started with this company no-body sold anything, and we are a plumbing company too, I dont hink there is many plans on that side of the fence either. but I sell the plans I get the work, so when I got a couple hundred service agreements in the fall and spring and the other guys are sitting at home maybe they will get on board! 800 is a nice number, we dont enough volume to get that high I dont think.

    and this isnt a stab at anybody else this is just how it is in my area, I understand that my approach may not work at all elsewhere..

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,739
    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post

    While we all try our best to do the highest quality we can... there is this principle of not throwing your pearls before a pig... A pig has NO IDEA what a pearl is... and after sniffing it and deciding it is not food... will trample it with reckless wanton.
    Good stuff!

    If the work you do has no promise of energy savings associated with it, then accountability for something not promised is a bit silly.

    Most "Home Performance" has both implied and expressed promise of energy savings, with no history of accurate results or intention of tracking to see if current pot shots land anywhere in this neighborhood or the next. If you promise $1 in savings and the homeowner experiences 95, that's a .95 "realization" rate. Promise $1000, deliver $950. (Some would say close enough for horseshoes)

    Here's how crappy we are doing here in NY:

    http://bit.ly/2007NYSERDAhpwesresults -The first report I found has program realization at .38 (see appendix page 13)
    http://bit.ly/NYSERDAandreattareport - the "we suck less" report - see conclusion at bottom
    http://bit.ly/2012HPwESImpact - didn't turn out as well as "we suck less" report projected

    Promise $1000 annual savings, deliver $380 - I'd call that throwing the horseshoe into the neighbors yard. Anyone else agree?

    Here is a problem I see NYSERDA is seriously exposed to:
    http://www.integralprintmedia.com/ma...uirements.html
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    21,404
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    Good stuff!

    If the work you do has no promise of energy savings associated with it, then accountability for something not promised is a bit silly.

    Most "Home Performance" has both implied and expressed promise of energy savings, with no history of accurate results or intention of tracking to see if current pot shots land anywhere in this neighborhood or the next. If you promise $1 in savings and the homeowner experiences 95, that's a .95 "realization" rate. Promise $1000, deliver $950. (Some would say close enough for horseshoes)

    Here's how crappy we are doing here in NY:

    http://bit.ly/2007NYSERDAhpwesresults -The first report I found has program realization at .38 (see appendix page 13)
    http://bit.ly/NYSERDAandreattareport - the "we suck less" report - see conclusion at bottom
    http://bit.ly/2012HPwESImpact - didn't turn out as well as "we suck less" report projected

    Promise $1000 annual savings, deliver $380 - I'd call that throwing the horseshoe into the neighbors yard. Anyone else agree?

    Here is a problem I see NYSERDA is seriously exposed to:
    http://www.integralprintmedia.com/ma...uirements.html
    I think you mis-understand what I meant:

    A pig has NO understanding nor appreciation for pearls... Kinda like a stone deaf person cannot appreciate Bach or Mendelssohn or Beethoven.

    So you understand now?
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  10. #49
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Leesburg, Fl
    Posts
    46
    This is the Ask Our Pro's forum, and only Pro members that have been vetted by the AOPC may post advise, commentary, or ask questions of the OP here.

    You can find the rules for posting and qualifications here.

    Further infractions may result in loss of posting privileges.
    Last edited by beenthere; 06-23-2013 at 08:41 PM. Reason: Non Pro * member

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Gulf Coast
    Posts
    95
    Quote Originally Posted by air1 View Post
    For most residential systems I don't think they are necessary. In fact, "tune-ups" can often cause more problems than they prevent. If you keep your filter clean and the system seems to be operating normally and you utility bills seem normal, then you should be okay. If you live in a harsh environment and your outdoor unit gets really dirty or you can't remember to change your filters, then a annual cleaning/inspection may be necessary.
    For commercial systems I think a maintenance program is absolutely necessary. Commercial systems are often neglected and are subject to heavy duty use and should be inspected/cleaned more often.
    Im trying to wrap my head around the difference between the two? If you want to PREVENT what are typically more expensive repairs/longer downtimes, spend the little bit of money and have your equipment on a maintenance program!

  12. #51
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,308
    John8385, this is the Ask Our Pro's forum, and only Pro members that have been vetted by the AOPC may post advise, commentary or ask questions of the OP here.

    You can find the rules for posting and qualifications here.

    Your post has been deleted.
    Further infractions may result in loss of posting privileges.
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  13. #52
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Leesburg, Fl
    Posts
    46
    This is the Ask Our Pro's forum, and only Pro members that have been vetted by the AOPC may post advise, commentary, or ask questions of the OP here.

    You can find the rules for posting and qualifications here.
    Last edited by beenthere; 06-23-2013 at 09:19 PM. Reason: Non Pro * member, no warning, he was apologizing

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