LPC should control it. No?
Continental
M. # CPT67
S. # 14440789
Copeland Compressor
M. # AFE11C3E IAA 901
S.. 12C00073E
121 VAC
Condenser air: 85/99
Head pressure: 309 / 119º
Suction Pressure: 63/25º
Comp. suction temp: 62º
LL temp: 111º (both sides of drier)
Discharge temp: 196º
Evap air: 57º/53º
Compressor RLA: 5.6A
Actual amps: 6.35A
This prep table has two TXV's and two LLSV's. The box TXV/LLSV appears to be controlled by a stat at the evap coil. But I can't find anything which controls to upper deck LLSV except a manual rocker switch.
Is that the way this box is controlled?
It seems to have sufficient SC to have the box TXV controlling properly . But even with the box temp at 45º F. the SSH was way high.
The compressor / condensing unit is said to be new. So I'm not sure if they match (the condensing unit and the case). But what I want to know is: where the hell is the extra amp coming from? I had to jump out the O/L to even get the above data.
Since these readings were taken I blasted out the condenser coil with a garden hose - because I ended up cleaning out several others in the place - so the numbers may have changed slightly.
Nonetheless: what do you all think?
PHM
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When faced with the choice between changing one's mind, and proving that there is no need to do so, most tend to get busy on the proof.
LPC should control it. No?
Officially, Down for the count
YOU HAVE TO GET OFF YOUR ASS TO GET ON YOUR FEET
I know enough to know, I don't know enough
Why is it that those who complain the most contribute the least?
MONEY CAN'T BUY HAPPINESS. POVERTY CAN'T BUY ANYTHING
I forget to mention:
There is also a LP control. It has a hand-written note on it: Cut-out: 33 Summer / 38 winter.
So the stat on the evap controls the box temperature and the LP control controls the upper deck temperature?
If so: what shall I set the LP control for? (R-404) So maybe Cut-in at 82 lbs. and maybe Cut-out at 53 lbs. ?
And what about the excess amp draw?
PHM
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PHM
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When faced with the choice between changing one's mind, and proving that there is no need to do so, most tend to get busy on the proof.
t-stat inside the box and the upper is on a l/p control..
Let's give nukes a chance.
I have worked on a few of these. If the unit does not have an open area in the back to discharge the hot condenser air, the hot air will recirculate inside the mechanical area. (For example if the unit is up against a wall with other units next to it) The solution Continental has is a special front cover that has a divider and an exhaust fan at the top to blow out the hot air to reduce recirculation of air through the condenser coil.
As with all Continental units, the condensing unit is undersized for normal to heavy usage. But it should work great in a 70* ambient with light usage! Ok I'm not an engineer, maybe I'm being harsh, but I know for a FACT that Contintental will use much smaller condensing units on any given unit, than say, Delfield, or True.
Since the cold rail has no fans it will run a lower SST, so it can frost up. Since the base runs a higher SST, any time the base thermostat is calling, the SST will be too high for the cold rail to frost up. So if you had a situation where the doors / drawers on the base stay open, causing long run times, then the cold rail will suffer first. In other words, the cold rail can't "do its thing" until the base is cycled off.
That being said, the cold rail MUST be turned off every night so the ice can melt, and the food must be removed. In the morning the cold rail needs to be wiped out (unless it has a drain). The cold rail lid should stay closed over the food during the day, except during periods of heavy usage. The cold rail cannot be near any type of A/C vent that blows air towards it. The Food must all be below 40*f before it is put into the cold rail. The food cannot be stacked above the load limit lines in the pans that they put into the cold rail. Man, I should be a factory support tech, huh?
Wow great post!
Officially, Down for the count
YOU HAVE TO GET OFF YOUR ASS TO GET ON YOUR FEET
I know enough to know, I don't know enough
Why is it that those who complain the most contribute the least?
MONEY CAN'T BUY HAPPINESS. POVERTY CAN'T BUY ANYTHING
Uhhh . . . yeah. How can I help you?
I have a pizza prep table that draws high amps.
Yeah; they do that sometimes. Especially when they run hot.
What is the maximum ambient temperature rating?
Oh; it's not very high.
Do you use numbers there? Is there a published rating? Or even a secret rating you could tell me?
Yeah, well, they do tend to run a little warm.
This is a refrigerated pizza prep table. I'm not kidding; that is the actual name on your website.
Yes it is; I looked up the model number. Pizza Prep. That's right.
Let me ask you another question: what with choosing a name like that and all do you imagine that Continental may have anticipated the use of this unit somewhere at least somewhat Close to a pizza oven? Certainly they would have pictured that it would be used at least in a commercial kitchen don't you think?
I would guess so - that sounds about right.
Oh that reminds me: is this 1/3HP condensing unit the right size for this case? It seems a little small to me.
Me too - I always tell people to install a 1/2 HP unit after the 1/3 compressors go bad.
Is that a common thing?
Yeah; they don't last long. But maybe the halfs do - I don't really know.
So anyway; this compressor draws too much amperage. What would cause that?
Could be a lot of things.
Like what? Could you maybe narrow it down for me?
Maybe the compressor is going bad?
That could be but if I jump out the overload the compressor runs and cools the box. Otherwise it short cycles on the compressor overload. That doesn't seem right to me.
No; that's not good - it shouldn't do that all the time.
Oh; when Should it do it?
I don't really know.
I have a list of the operating conditions here - would that help you get to the bottom of this amp draw question? Want me to read them to you?
It's probably just too hot.
I wrote down here that the air going into the condenser coil was 85º - is that too hot?
It's pretty hot; yeah.
Is that too hot for this machine?
Probably yeah.
What temperature ambient would make it work right?
It would have to be cooler?
Fifty? Thirty? What temperature would work?
I'm not really sure - but cooler air would probably make it work better.
Do you find that a lot of pizza oven baking areas are air conditioned? Anything like that? I mean in your experience.
Probably not, no.
So let's get back to this excessive amp draw - what does Continental want me to tell the customer? Just buy a new one?
We don't make that unit any more.
Why is that? Too many complaints?
I don't know - just a complete redesign - we don't use the top freezer any more - air just blows on the pans.
So the high amp draw on this unit is just the way it is? Nothing we can do to fix it?
Just keep it clean and that's about the best you can do.
Tell me what the air into and out of the condenser coil should be.
The condenser?
Yes; it's next to the compressor - air goes across it, gets heated up, and the temperature increases. How much of a difference would be good?
Oh that's a good one - I'm not really too sure about that . . .
Well how will I know when the condenser is clean enough? Say I cleaned it perfectly - just like it was when you measured it there in the factory - what would you be looking for? To make sure it was OK and all? I have 85º in and 99º out - is that OK?
Sounds a little high?
What number would I have had to say before you didn't think it was a little high? Say the air was coming out at 95º - would that be OK?
I'm not sure.
OK; how about if it was going in like I said and coming out at say; 75º - would that be OK?
No one has ever asked that before - I'm just not sure.
How about coming out at 65º ? Would that reduce the amp draw?
It might.
And if not then what? If I clean the condenser and it still doesn't work what should I do? Tell the customer to buy a different brand.
I guess they would have to at that point.
OK; thanks for all your help. I'll go tell the now.
Bye-bye.
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Hey! I just thought of something! Maybe the guy who cut all the wires out of the Anthony Display Wall Door's wiring trough last week got fired after I ratted him out and he has since been hired to head Continental's Tech Service Group!
PHM
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When faced with the choice between changing one's mind, and proving that there is no need to do so, most tend to get busy on the proof.
so I guess you're going with the 1/2 hp condensing unit ?
would the customer go for this ?
How about just adding a second coil to remove some of that heat .... double row coil ??
i have 3 customers with this case..im not a fan of the design, and i wonder what they had in mind when producing the thing..
its kinda labor intensive !!
Let's give nukes a chance.
I won't know what they will go for until I ask them. My preference would be to bolt the prep table in place and remote a 1/2HP condenser for it.
That is a funny idea - just graft on a second condenser coil. But what would happen? Say we could cut the TD in half - so if the space temp was 85º then we could maybe run a 115º condensing temperature? Would I have to replace the condenser fan too?
PHM
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PHM
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When faced with the choice between changing one's mind, and proving that there is no need to do so, most tend to get busy on the proof.
Get creative and piggyback a water cooled condenser.
Officially, Down for the count
YOU HAVE TO GET OFF YOUR ASS TO GET ON YOUR FEET
I know enough to know, I don't know enough
Why is it that those who complain the most contribute the least?
MONEY CAN'T BUY HAPPINESS. POVERTY CAN'T BUY ANYTHING
I love that idea!
I had to do a bunch of end-of-the-year billing today and didn't get back to the place yet but I'll see what they want to do. They just bought the place and opened a week ago today so I'm not sure how kicking out large dollars will fly for them. I doubt that the price of a water valve and a condenser and all the piping will thrill them though. <g>
PHM
PHM
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When faced with the choice between changing one's mind, and proving that there is no need to do so, most tend to get busy on the proof.
Id remote the condenser personally and skip the water cooled... Seems like these days we're all about conserving water, especially here in the Midwest, having a case go through all that water just going down the drain just don't seem right. I don't know about the environment its in, but the pizza kitchens ive been in have been high flour environments that basically required all the indoor refer condensers being cleaned weekly, which is why I vote for the remote...
There is the other option, get it running, sell it as is, and buy a different brand!
I have also installed cpr valves to prevent overloading compressor when they turn on the rail. Some units I service use low temp rated compressor and really needed that addition. One system went from 1 comp. per year to currently running the same comp. for 8 yrs. with no other changes to the unit design.
PHM, that is freaking awesome and hilarious that you posted that conversation!
I have had a similar conversation with another manufacturer Randell.
Working on a three-door pizza prep table with cold rail, that used a 1/2hp cond. unit. Kitchen was at 85*f on the dot. Unit just wouldn't keep up, factory had us change compressor, TXV's, etc., etc. After still having issues, finally tech support says, "Well, we say they're rated to work in up to 86*f ambient, but we actually only test them at 75*f ambient." Wow! Condensing units de-rate as the ambient temperatures increase. Just last week, I was asked to work on a 6-drawer Randell equipment-stand lowboy cooler underneath a grill that was staying right around 45*f through the day. I saw the box pull down to 33*f when all the drawers were shut, but it took a LONG time to pull down. Two evaporator coils, all fans working, even frost patterns on both coils. I look over to the GIANT mechanical area for the condensing unit. Think to myself, wow, must be a big condensing unit. Remove the grill, and its all empty space, except for the wee little 1/3hp condensing unit sitting there struggling and fighting for its life in a 85*f kitchen. What a joke. Called factory and they said try changing the drawer gaskets if they're torn. Really? You think that's the problem? They said other than that, the customers just need to stop opening the drawers so much. Nice. Tech support also told me that unit already has had compressor replaced just about a year ago, and thermostats replaced too. I casually mentioned to the customer that the only real solution is to upgrade the condensing unit. But since the refrigerator is only 3 years old and still has compressor warranty, of course they don't want to do that. Ok, sign here, collect money, bye bye!
Normally tech support line people are very good and most are truly excellent. It is generally a pleasure for me to talk to someone who speaks refrigeration language well And really knows their own equipment. Although sometimes I do try to get engineering on the phone. <g>
But the Continental guy was absolutely astonishing to me. Although he was very pleasant and nice to talk to - he seemed as though he pretty much knew nothing technical about the machines they sold or even about refrigeration in general. I was picturing how it would be if I were say; a second year apprentice - calling in for help and getting This friggin guy. Holy Dog Poop Batman! <g>
PHM
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PHM
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When faced with the choice between changing one's mind, and proving that there is no need to do so, most tend to get busy on the proof.