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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
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    Portugal
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    18

    RTHA R22 Retrofit

    Hi. As some of you know, in European Union after 2015, units woking with R22 will be forbidden. In the case of TRANE RTHA does anyone change de fluid?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    up in the hizzy
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    Chillers with flooded evaporator are very difficult to retrofit.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Portugal
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    18
    This chiller have is a semi-flooded evaporator, its typical from the centravacs from Trane. This ones have a expansion orifice before the evaporator. And the difficult of retrofit on this machines is exactly that one.
    Let´s see if anyone already changed the R22.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    up in the hizzy
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    I have been talking to engineers from some of the refrigerant companies and they all advise not to use a zeotropic blends with flooded evaporators, we are stuck with r-22 in such applications till the next flavor of the month arrives.
    Keep on posting your findings.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
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    Portugal
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    Well for that purpose you already have a good blends with no glide such R507, and R434a with 1,5ºC.

    We already retrofit an RTHA300 with R434a, but its been difficult to get the correct size of both expansion orifices. the new refrigerants have a bigger molecular weight traducing to higher mass flow.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    up in the hizzy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos Daniel View Post
    Well for that purpose you already have a good blends with no glide such R507, and R434a with 1,5ºC.

    We already retrofit an RTHA300 with R434a, but its been difficult to get the correct size of both expansion orifices. the new refrigerants have a bigger molecular weight traducing to higher mass flow.
    besides the two orifices what else did you change? why was the high mass flow rate a problem?
    The pressure-temperature of r434a differs by a lot compared to r22, why did you pick that particular refrigerant?
    in the US some customers want to leave r22 behind, we have lots r22 replacements in the market, I'm not crazy about any of them.
    I dont think you'll find anyone here that already retrofitted a chiller from r22 to ???, hvac-talk is a small internet forum, my guess would be that around 10% to 15% of all US techs visit this site. very few adventurous minds, most here adhere to standardized methods if you know what I mean.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    USA
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    4,993
    Quote Originally Posted by valdelocc View Post
    very few adventurous minds, most here adhere to standardized methods if you know what I mean.
    I dont fit into that catagory! Im game for trying anything new as long as I can justify that it will work, makes the job fun. For puposes of this discusion, the RTHA is a flooded evap. The refrigerant is on the outside of the tubes. I have not heard or seen any R22 replacement that wont cause fractionazation in the evap. There may very well be one out there. JMHO
    Your poor planning does not constitute an emergency on my part!!!!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    38
    Hi Carlos,
    The retrofit of this unit can be made only with R134a.
    You will have 70% of cooling and 65% of power input.
    Your local sales office will make a selection for you. If they can’t help you ask them to check the TRANE CARE retrofit program.
    You should change current transformers (and adjust OVL, and condenser limit settings of control), oil and oil filters (about 5 times).
    You may also need to adjust water flows.
    According to a program (TRANE) no orifices and no O’rings need to be replaced.
    According to compressor size you may gain another 5% of cooling capacity if you open the compressor and remove a spacer which limits the move of slide valve.
    Regards,
    CV

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    4,993
    Interesting. I changed older Trane recips from R22 to R12 at that time. Aircooled with 1 100 Ton recip in them. Really did not have to change anything on the chiller. a few control settings. The reason it was changed was becuase Trane had twice the run time before compressor inspections on R12 vs R22.
    Quote Originally Posted by CV_Geardrive View Post
    Hi Carlos,
    The retrofit of this unit can be made only with R134a.
    You will have 70% of cooling and 65% of power input.
    Your local sales office will make a selection for you. If they can’t help you ask them to check the TRANE CARE retrofit program.
    You should change current transformers (and adjust OVL, and condenser limit settings of control), oil and oil filters (about 5 times).
    You may also need to adjust water flows.
    According to a program (TRANE) no orifices and no O’rings need to be replaced.
    According to compressor size you may gain another 5% of cooling capacity if you open the compressor and remove a spacer which limits the move of slide valve.
    Regards,
    CV
    Your poor planning does not constitute an emergency on my part!!!!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Northwest Louisiana
    Posts
    280
    The Multi-stack folks claim little loss by retro fitting to turbocurs and 134a, this may be a alternate solution for you. We are going to do a study on two RTHA for just this type of conversion. Regarding adventurous refrigeration mechanics? we are limited only by our customers pocket book!
    A LITTLE BIT OF STUPID GOES A LONG WAY!

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