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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Green Valley, Ontario
    Posts
    13

    Waterfurnace problems

    Hi,
    We have had problems with 1 of our 2 Waterfurnace Premier units(we have a 6 ton & a 4 ton)since they were installed in fall 2001.(2 months after actually) It has become an annual event(usually in Dec/Jan/Feb.) that we have to call our dealer to come fix the unit because the trouble light has come on. Always the same problem- Burnt start capacitor & pitted contactors, and then burnt out compressor. We then have to go on emergency heat for 2-3 weeks while our dealer & Waterfurnace figure out what to do. We have changed the compressor 4 times! Always on the same unit. Last year Waterfurnace tried to blame it on our power supply, so we had the local utility company (Hydro One) come out and check our power lines & the pad mounted transformer we have 100' from our house. Everything checked fine. Hydro one also told us that we are not at the end of the line & there had been no reports of any equipment failures in the area. Our neighbours on both sides of us, also have had no power supply problems. Our dealer & Waterfurnace reps spent 6 hours in our house testing the units the electrical panel. Our electrician, who wired our house when we built it in 2001, was also on hand to check voltage ect at the panel, while they were testing things. They couldn't find anything wrong with our power supply or panels or breakers. We at this point were fed up with the annual hassle & additional cost of heating with emergency power. We wanted them to replace the faulty 6 ton unit with a new one. It seemed pretty simple to us that since the other unit(4 ton) never had a problem and nothing else in the house has ever had a problem(3 freezers, 3 fridges, never any burnt out bulbs in the house ect) that it was the unit itself. Waterfurnace said they would install a voltage regulator on the unit & that should solve the problem. So we did that with the verbal agreement that if (when) the unit failed again it would be replaced. Well Dec/Jan/Feb. rolled around and guess what! The red light comes on and we have blown start capacitors, pitted contactors, and now a finished compressor! Who knew! 2 weeks have gone by on emergency heat (we live near Montreal & it's been cold!) Waterfurnce has just emailed us a lovely little deal.

    " We will provide a brand new Envision series unit at no charge to resolve this issue. However, Waterfurnace & Master believe the issues associated with the current unit failures are a direct result of power supply issues. In the event the new unit has electrical issues Waterfurnace & Master will not provide any assistance to correct the problem. Please let us know if you agree with the terms of this offer".

    They are essentially telling us that there is no warranty with the new unit. Although there is a 10 year warranty. Any problem we have with the new unit will be blamed on power supply issues. We're tempted to just have them keep changing the compressor every winter for the rest of our warranty (4 more years) then go to court. Can you tell we're frustrated!!! Thanks for reading my rant. I'm hoping that some one out there has some answers or suggestions as to what could be causing this problem.

    Glenn

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Middle Tennessee
    Posts
    11,347

    *

    put a recording phase monitor such as an icm 450

    have the original installer put it under a locked key box

    set parameters for equipment min and max specs

    e-mail me if you need more info!

    this will eliminate or find cause with the incoming power!

    dont sign anything that voids your warranty!



    .

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Southold.calm
    Posts
    5,706
    10-Tons of equipment! How big is this house?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Posts
    1,251
    The 1st thing that came to my mind when I read your post was the same thing, do you really have a 6 ton load?and is the ductwork sized to handle it?I'm much more inclined to think along those lines since there is so much information missing from your post such as what type of compressor failure are you having. I'm not up on the units from back then but the new units don't have a start capacitor. Starting in 2004 they have a current sensor for the compessor to lock it out in the event it experiences a non start/short cycle condition. This kit can be added to older models. After putting myself in your shoes this is what I would do: Make sure your unit, loops, and ducts are sized properly and then I would go for the new unit they're offering. It's a much better unit and includes a compressor/low voltage monitor built into the unit to protect it. It's air coil also has a nice coating to help prevent the type of leaks the industry is seeing now. Trading 4 yrs of trouble for a brand new unit sounds like a fair trade and they're only saying they won't cover problems caused by improper power.
    "You do not merely want to be considered just the best of the best. You want to be considered the only ones who do what you do.".... Jerry Garcia
    "You just have to decide if you're a Tigger or an Eeyore,..I think you know where I stand on the great Tigger/Eeyore debate." Prof. Randy Pausch

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Greater Philadelphia Area
    Posts
    124
    What kind of circuit protection does that unit have? If some thing is causing enough draw to burn components that fast I would think it should be high enough to trip your breaker first.
    It always fails you in winter, have you used it successfully during the cooling season?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Green Valley, Ontario
    Posts
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by Airmechanical View Post
    put a recording phase monitor such as an icm 450

    have the original installer put it under a locked key box

    set parameters for equipment min and max specs

    e-mail me if you need more info!

    this will eliminate or find cause with the incoming power!

    dont sign anything that voids your warranty!



    .
    Airmechanical
    Waterfurnace made us install a ICM491c last winter.
    The ICM450 is for 3 phase I believe. Any suggestions on a similar 1 phase product?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Green Valley, Ontario
    Posts
    13
    pecmsg

    The house is 6100 sq ft. on three levels.
    4 ton unit does top level. 9 ft ceiling & vaulted ceiling in 3 of 4 bedrooms.
    1 thermostat

    6 ton unit does ground floor & basement.
    Ground floor has 11 ft ceilings with a 22ft vaulted ceiling in living room. Open concept, living room/kitchen/entranceway.

    Basement has 8 ft ceilings. full finished walkout basement. 1 thermostat on ground floor.
    The house is full of low E windows

    The garage is not included in the 6100 sq ft & is heated by a propane heater.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Green Valley, Ontario
    Posts
    13
    lbf

    The duct work & system sizing were done by Waterfurnace. I agee that the 4 years of trouble are not worth it, but as it stands now there is no one that can prove/find that the problem is with our power supply. The ICM491c voltage monitor has been on for a year now and we still had the same problem.
    They will tell us any problem on the new unit "is a power supply issue" and we will be stuck paying for any & all repaires in the future. They also make it sound like they won't even touch our unit. " In the event the new unit has electrical issues, Waterfurnace & Master will not provide any assistance to correct the problem." I don't think accepting a new unit with virtually no warranty is a good idea.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Green Valley, Ontario
    Posts
    13
    wethead

    We have the IMC491 voltage monitor on the unit for a year now. Never once had a breaker trip, never hot, they have been checked everytime our dealer has to come here. The 2 units run 24/7 365 days a year. Never change the temp setting, always at 70f. We have never had a problem with either unit in a/c mode.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    108
    Are they checking incoming power AT THE UNIT? Checking at the circuit breaker is not good enough.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,764
    My guess is the problem is not on the power side of the systems. I'm bettin it's in the loop circuits and the compressor is being hit with liquid refrigerant due to insufficient heat exchange. I'm betting their is more to this story that just a broken compressor as the low temperature sensor has been cut out of line. Or the TXV has been modified. Or something in the refrigeration circuit.

    I'm bettin the compressor is being wiped out by liquid refrigerant and the only way you would know that, as an owner, is to have the servicing contractor give you all the temperature and pressure specifics that are associate with the running of that unit.

    Give up more info and I'll bet we will point you in the direction of the loop or duct work and modification of the safety control in some way.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Middle Tennessee
    Posts
    11,347

    *

    Quote Originally Posted by gsp23 View Post
    Airmechanical
    Waterfurnace made us install a ICM491c last winter.
    The ICM450 is for 3 phase I believe. Any suggestions on a similar 1 phase product?[/COLOR]

    i meant 1 like the icm450 (a recording voltage monitor) but for single phase!

    i tried to edit my first post but my computer was going haywire!

    i will try to locate a single phase recording voltage monitor for you!



    .

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Huntsville,AL
    Posts
    4,125
    are you sure the voltage is NOT three phase?
    I would also think that the monitor designed for 3ph would work on 1phase --

    at the UNIT
    harvest rainwater,make SHADE,R75/50/30= roof/wall/floor, use HVAC mastic,caulk all wall seams!

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