Geothermal Domestic Water heating and space heating
I know I have posted about the WaterFurnace NSW systems before since everybody recommends a desuperheater but the desuperheater in most cases only performs 30-40% of the homes domestic water heating load. Upgrading to a NSW018 or NSW025 with an 80 gallon or 110 gallon storage tank will provide 100% of a homes domestic water heating and greatly reduce water heating costs if they are using propane or electric and still there are some savings over a gas tankless water heater too.
Nice lookin' as always. Will the heat pump come on just to heat the water?
I've never thought much of tankless gas. If you factor in maintenance, it could chew up any savings over a tank. And if you have 1 repair of an expensive board, inducer, gas valve, you're way in the whole. Only hope is they are more reliable than furnaces that are being sold today.
those are a nice system as long as their installed and set up right.
They NSW018 (envision water heating) is a separate system than the 5 Series so each can idependantly come on. We have pump slaving setup on the 5 Series so that the NSW can turn on the flow center by itself. Really freaking sweet system, even though we are in a heating dominated climate our loops are still often sized based on cooling load so we always have plenty of capacity for heating with both systems and during the summer it keeps the loop EWT's lower than normal because the NSW018 is taking almost 100% of the cooling load and putting it into water heating.
Originally Posted by BaldLoonie
I will be building my personal house in the next year or so and will be doing a 7 Series variable capacity with one of these water systems even though gas is available in my area.
For you house, why not put a small boiler in and use hot water for you auxillary heat? Plus you could install radiant floor heat in the bathrooms and maybe kitchen too.
This customer was building this home as a rental to a family member so while it was high end it was because he was paying the power bill but radiant does not make sense. Also this is all electric so no boiler. I'm not sure if your understanding the concept here, this is showing all systems for heating, cooling and water heating being geothermal with no need for backup like a desuperheater needs backup
Originally Posted by motoguy128
My post was referring to your own home. Not the customers. Sorry for the confusion.
I really like the water heating concept you've been using.
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Oh for my house gotcha. In my house I dont' know if I will do radiant due to the cost, and while my house does have natural gas available i am trying to keep my HVAC all geo with no backup and since I am using the waterfurnace 7 series I will not be doing any hydronic coils.
My initial thoughts are that I will do the 3 ton 7 series(3K sq foot house with about 27K BTU initial load before efficiency upgrades) and then will be using the NSW025 for water heating so I have extra capacity for floor heating in the bathrooms and maybe kitchen but that might get spendy for just a 200 sq feet of radiant floor. If i do radiant I might also heat the garage slab with it since I want my cars to be comfy too! Then I can do a cooling only daikin ductless for the theater room and garage. Still working with the designer on floor plans so while I am thinking of my own HVAC I am not jumping into it to much until the floor plans are done and builder is selected.
Been doing geo/hydronic/plumbing installation and servicing for 10+ years, and I'm not a fan of using de-superheater option on geos.
They typically don't run to ONLY satisfy a call for dhw, so you only get dhw production when the coax is providing heating or cooling to the house. In summer if u run ac a lot, u may actually produce enough dhw from de-superheater to make it worth it, but the rest of the year no. Then ur relying on electric heating elements in tanks to produce all of dhw. (=elec bill sky-high)
I would get a Navien tankless or some other option as long as it has recirc capabilities. Less potential for service call than with a geo source. Again, I am a service tech and speak from experience.
Just my two cents. Cheers--
I've also had a lot of good experience with the Navien Combi boiler to run small amounts of space heating in addition to tankless dhw production. Just installed one in a smaller house with all hi temp baseboard and it kicks butt even providing 180 water thru exchanger!
You are not serving your customers well if you are not installing desuperheater. You said that if the geo doesn't heat the water then you rely on expensive electric heating elements? Umm are you not relying on them MORE without the desuperheater?
Originally Posted by igasper10
You forget that a desuperheater is FREE energy so why not use it to the best of its ability, no it will not produce 100% of the water, your lucky if it produces 40%, but last i checked every 30% of something that is free is a 30% savings. Yes it costs about $300 to add the feature to the system and you need a 50 gallon storage tank but most homes save about $125 per year over electric or propane so its always a 5 year payback for the desuperheater function and storage tank.
Second, this system that I am showing in the video DOES run to only satisfy a call for DHW, this is NOT a desuperheater, it is a specific water heating separate system.
The desuperheater also keep heat out of you ground loops so they stay at a lower, more effceint temperature longer into the summer. In unusually hot summers, some of these loops get heat soaked/saturated to a point where you are almost tripping out the compressors on high limit. Wy put any more hit into the loops than you have to.
Folks act like geothermal is free. It's really just a giant heat sink. I huge block of concrete, or a giant block of ice would do the exact same thing. If you need 1 ton on average for 120days, you only need a 2880 ton block of ice sitting in a insulated pit to cool a home. Ironically, in the case of my home, that would be exactly the same as the interior volume of my house.
better you will Fly with most info by Sky in your customers' eye(s) !
other referencing may want to include about--
"...tank will provide 100% of a homes domestic water heating and greatly reduce water heating costs if they are using propane or electric and still there are ..." little or no savings over 8 and 9 buck/mcf nGas v 10-12 cent electricity above 106 deg and 6 degree dT in circulating HW on Demand with such as singled-prioritized HW. I mean your total uty bills and transport all inclusive with rates of 5 buck gas and 5 cent electric supply costs 9half the total bills). [radiant was tested alongside an IBC Condensing super CANADIAN boiler (decent controller too) at steady state kw to mcf measured at 105 degrees and 4 gpm per ton GT HW... 104 , the GT saved less than 4%; r410a. THe forced air dropped amp draw by over 10% so the boiler switches to full load then and customer selected Forced Air GT (having high return grills) to become first stage in 20-deg weather and colder on 6600 deg day zone 5.1/2 . Both the 3-staging GT and the variable IBC boiler are on constantly at below 25 deg for warm toesies all winter-
Hydro-Temp of AR (not Hdelta-HHt), a little before WF in 1981 patented Heat-Reclaiming in cooling mode, so savings are a little more annually averaged then having loop pumps drop out for HW recovery in Cooling at a 100% reclaiming heat of the system, nearly so.
Then WITHOUT extra valves, runs full condensing as a DeSuperheater as well in Heating; but is programmable to drop out for full heating to a space.
But Prioritizes HW recovery as well On Demand without H or C.
Now Energy Star rated 2nd to WF in Highest Speed only, EER 30.8 , V-Star Bristol Compressor, but has 49k output etl tested (both) to WF 46k.
Blended raw AHRI low-Med speed averaging has WF at 41+ and H-T at 42.+
And the addition of 100% heat reclaiming in Cooling Simultaneously, loops/well "OFF" gets EER's above , well into the 50's, anyways.
Kinda like some new Mini's running in mid 47 degree weather or warmer (only) with HW features.
Fine if your installing an Energy Star(tm) systemic HVAC+HW for a tax credit or families to ~ 4 or less; and then go 100% On-Demand, I believe.
Did that HW DeSuperheater/or On-Demand get set up for cleaning each year or two, for customer to vinegar flush?
Did the 100% HW On-Demand (ODHW) get the HW from the BOTTOM of a single tank install as some OEM depict - and works very well with customer understanding tank blow-downs, and Y-Strainer clearing each year...?