03-14-2007, 08:58 PM
I had to laugh when I read the link to the CIAQ minutes. I understand the desire to reduce outside air for economical reasons but filtered outside air is still the best for indoor air.
03-14-2007, 11:45 PM
Well well I'm back from my long travels and finally home at my computer in the right frame of mind to hit this post,I can't handle it any more just lurking on this thread. Most of you on this site know what I do but for those of you that don't I help design and install commercial and industrial PCO systems all around the world. And have quite a knowledge in how UVGI systems Photocatalysis systems should be used and installed. What Ecoquest does, is not I repeat is not a PCO system yes they have a minute bit of TI02 on a catalysis surrounding a UV bulb on steroids. They are using a bulb that has broad spectrum's of the UV light scale, including the 100 nm scale. This light is extremely close to the X-Ray band which will literal burn the air creating an intense concentrated cloud of Ozone. This technology is called photo plasma. It is relatively new on the seen and has very little research in real life situations. And this technology depends on the biologics being in the cloud long enough to oxidize it. All of the testing I have read on this is all done in a controlled lab or cubical with time related results. No input and out put testing in real life velocities that you would see in an HVAC system.
Photocatalysis is real and here to stay I'm not going to bite on that Berkley paper I read. When it came out there are so many faults in the test and reasons that I can give that they got the results they did we dismissed it.And the cocktail that they used in the test I do not believe is a realistic sample of what you would see in an environment. And it would help if they used a TIO2 catalysis that wasn't 15 year old technology. Not all TIO2 is made the same and there has been one commercial supplier out of Japan for 20 plus years until recently. Here is a PDF that will explain some of what I am talking about.http://www.cse.polyu.edu.hk/~cesclee...0of%20VOCs.pdf.
We are starting a third round of testing at Dugway Proving Grounds next week for the Army. We will have a mil spec shortly and have a more firm grip on what Photocatalysis is really capable of. We have systems in up to 100 ton Trane and McQuay air handlers, VAV boxes to residential to 300 cfm table tops. With amazingly high single pass rates of VOCs, mold, and bacteria in real life air flows.
The question here seems to be about ethics and history and marketing practices.
A PCO by its self is useless with out proper filtration. The light gets dirty and efficient and the catalysis can get over absorbed with to much particulate collecting on it. And there is more to improving the air quality than just a quick fix with a PCO unit. Fresh Air is a must in most situations humidity control, proper filtration and a properly installed HVAC system is a great start. And every situation and every system is a different animal.
03-15-2007, 11:11 AM
Being in the business could you please respond to the point of incomplete oxidation resulting in the formation of formaldehyde, this appears to be a problem.
03-15-2007, 12:00 PM
The Formaldehyde isn't even an issue with RCI since the University of Beijing states that it destroys it....so even if the reactions produced it the following reaction would destroy it. But some of us don't consider that a fact since the lab hasn't released the actual white paper, only the result...which personally is good enough for me!
Yes it needs more testing...but as far as I am concerned, Kevin is right. Beyond a shadow of a doubt that using it is far better than not.
03-15-2007, 05:42 PM
It sounds like the DOD needs to participate in the CIAQ so they can talk to the folks at DOE, HUD, GSA, EPA, CPSC, NIST and NASA about PCO's and VOC's creating HCHO in IAQ.
Seriously, I don't think one can dismiss research coming out of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratories. These are very bright and capable scientists and engineers. I, too, would like to know of any other research results on the byproducts of PCO's and VOC's.
While a PCO device does breakdown formaldehyde, it does so at a slower rate than the creation of the new formaldehyde from the photocatalytic oxidation reaction with the VOC's. The Lawrence Berkeley people found that even when you subtract the formaldehyde reduction you still obtain a three fold increase in indoor formaldehyde concentrations.
03-15-2007, 06:02 PM
Mbarson I would love to respond to the incomplete oxidation on the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratories report. First off the samples they were using were all mixed together like a cocktail and also the samples were in the parts per billion range. We have found it is almost impossible to measure VOC reductions in the ppb range . Also I have never seen a VOC concentration measurement drop below the 10 ppm range using photo catalysis. There has to be enough of a hydrocarbon sample present to maintain the cloud of hydroxyl radicals. So the higher the concentration the more work the catalysis can do. I would venture to say because of the low concentration of the sample and the Japanese TIO2 they were using there was very little if any catalytic reaction. The older types of TIO2 have a very low absorption properties, poor pore size distribution and very large crystal size which means it has a very poor photocatalytic property. The TIO2 they used in the test was only 3% by weight bound to the honey comb which means 97% of the surface area on the honey comb catalysis is exposed aluminum covered with the binder they used to adhere it to the catalysis. This is all they are capable of adhering any more it will flake off. This is one of the processes we have resolved and patented. Lennox's Pure Indoor Air has this problem with the TIO2 adhering to the media.
Also the catalysis design is very uneffecient for the air stream to make contact with it and keep the airstream in contact with the cloud of hydroxyl radicals. We looked at the honeycombs almost 6 years ago and did a lot of experimenting with them to no avail.
And last it takes so many mila watts of UV energy to activate a catalysis properly. They didn't even come close. The got the coverage but not the UV wattage.
Mbarson I would venture to say that there was no catalytic reaction or if there was it was very minimal.
03-15-2007, 06:15 PM
Breath easy the only other litature I have found any where on the internet in the thousands of papers I have on this subject is on NO gas they found that when they put it past a catalysis they had some NO2 with very little break down of the NO. I would give that paper to you but my old lap top hit my dash last week at 70 miles an hour when I locked up my breaks in Denver on the freeway. The DOE has many papers out written I think jointly with the University of Colorado. We have sold some stuff through a third party to NASAs training facility in Alabama a few years back for their physical training building but have never had any feed back on the units. If I herd right today one of our engineers has been cleared to give seminars for ASHRAE in photocatalysis for continuing educations points for engineers. I will ask around about that. The same one Jim you asked about speaking at your Filter conference later on this year.
Last edited by genesis; 03-15-2007 at 06:56 PM.
03-15-2007, 08:29 PM
Settnig the record straight...
I've debated about the value of joining in this debate especially after reviewing some of the extremely unprofessional remarks by some of the participants who have given the HVAC industry a bad name. I'd like to add something to the conversation regarding EcoQuest. I happen to be a federal prime contractor who has worked with the federal government since 1987. I’m a bit specialized in that I evaluate the needs that are brought to me and then I find a solution – generally in the realm of technology. I work with specialist on the federal side who are dealing with issues on a scale that I doubt any of you have ever seen in the private sector. I have over $15M in federal contracts and I’m considered a preferred vendor for the federal agencies that I serve.
Originally Posted by breathe easy
Now, with that being said, I am also a service-disabled veteran (SDV) and I work to help other SDVs start businesses so that they can continue to support their families after they return from war injured and having to readjust to civilian life. For one of you to ask “if this product is so good why isn’t it being sold through Wal-Mart” I respond because Mike Jackson choice not to take that direction. If you think that being marketed by Wal-Mart or any other mass marketer is a sign of value, then you haven't purchased any of that foreign made junk lately. That is also why the EcoQuest products are not being manufactured overseas at a cheaper price. Mike also doesn’t want the products sold over the Internet – he wants them sold by dealers (hopefully professionals) so that the customer gets the best service and has someone local that they can call if they need assistance. To ensure that the organization represents the product and the company in the best light, we have people who ascend to managers. Like EVERY company (and every industry judging by some of the responses in this thread), we have good and bad – we work to weed out the bad.
I didn’t choose MLM. I have a very successful business along with a wonderful family that takes up a lot of my time. Mike chose MLM as a means to sell the product and make the opportunity available to everyone. I have other products that I provide to the federal government that I purchase through distribution channels and depending on the volume you move, you get your discounts which creates your competitive advantage. It takes a lot of time and money to get to the point that you can compete with the mass marketers who deal in huge volume but offer no value outside of price and unless you have access to capitol, you aren't going to be able to break into that market which means the average American cannot enter the market or compete so MLM does offer value to the average American. The important thing as with any business prospect, is to look at the product and the plan – both need to offer a value proposition consistent with your business model.
I saw my sister loose a lot of money in Amway years ago because of the structure of their program that required you to move product in order to maintain your position within the organization. See used her credit cards to purchase products that she eventually had to take a loss on in order to not drop in rank within the organization. Also, like Shaklee (which my parents lost money on), you had to purchase your product from your “up line” and you also receive your check from this same person so if you had a bad “up line”, then you couldn’t get product for your customers or get your bonus checks which created problems. There have been unscrupulous practices by a number of these companies that gave MLM a bad name – I can’t tell you how many times I was lured into an Amway presentation under false pretenses.
Like any other business opportunity, I check out the plan. Whether it is with HP, IBM, AT&T, or EcoQuest - I look at what is expected of me by that manufacture/service provider (volume commitments, protected markets, etc.) and what value the product holds for my customer. I was drawn to EcoQuest by the product. Despite some of the “hysteria” that some of you have created by sighting the fictitious claims made from the first URL that pops up off a Google search as though that source must have been written by the finger of GOD since it is on the Internet (great research guys – this might explan why you are not current on new technologies or techniques – how is this a value to your customers again?), there is some very good supporting material for this technology if you can just cut through the hype and hysteria and do some actual research. There is research that has been conducted by independent labs and universities and I’ve seen some good discussions around some of these findings. I encourage that level of dialogue because it is at least based on some sibilance of truth. Also, there I’ve also known people who lean how to do something one way and they reject anything new and remain resistant to change. If you consider this tactic to be what is best for your customers, then I hope that I never have to do business with any of you. I started in mainframes long ago and when the PCs began showing up in the market in 1982/83, all my colleagues downplayed the significance of the technology. I found myself in the market because I had customers who had purchased them but didn’t know what to do with them so I assisted. In 1987 when I began networking them and installing the technology in businesses and the federal government, these diehard mainframers continued to deny that there was any value in the PC. Today, one of those guys is selling flower for FTD and another is trying to make a living in real estate. None of those people are still in IT and the ones that stuck it out did a tremendous disservice to their customers if they kept them running on old technologies because they were afraid to lean anything new. Just look at the number of large corporations with misstatements in their financials – some was through bad accounting practices and some was from bad technology.
Regarding the questions of why isn’t the federal government using this technology, the fact of the matter is that they are – I’m actually one of the people that is responsible for delivering the technology and I’m not using any of the usual “MLM scare tactics” (you guys should really learn about the dangers of “stereotyping” everyone – where your kind once used rope and gas chambers to lynch people you now use the internet – still just as shameful). The fed came to me with a problem and I presented them with the test data on the EcoQuest product before I signed with EcoQuest. The government then wanted to see the technology and conduct their own tests and the rest is history. Again, I wasn’t looking for a MLM opportunity however my customers wanted the product and I can use the MLM business model to help other SDVs. For $25 they can start their EcoQuest business and I pay that money so they are risking nothing. I also provide the funding to purchase the products since you can’t succeed in business without access to capitol. I work the contracts that I provide the product through these SDVs so we all benefit. One such SDV came back from Iraq 100% disabled. He has a wife and 5 sons that he was supporting on his VA pension – good luck with that. Since he is unable to work, I sponsored his wife and I’m helping her build a business that is now bringing in extra income to the family. Ask them what they thing of EcoQuest!
They are just one of several families that I’ve helped so far through EcoQuest and so I’m a bit thankful that Mike made the decision to not sell through Wal-Mart or to manufacture overseas to increase his profits. This is a business that anyone can afford and it has blessed many people. If we get nothing else from the experience, I will have used this business opportunity as a teaching tool to these SDVs to teach them how to start and operate a business. We use Quickbooks to track orders and inventory, we teach various marketing strategies, they research other products that they’d like to carry and how to obtain these products through the manufactures or distribution centers, how to use capitol effectively, etc.
I wish you all the best. I’ll likely be canceling my membership to this web site after this posting because I really don’t have time to waste in the exchange. I originally came here seeking to contract with HVAC professionals to do the installs in these government facilities and provide follow on service and support. I now believe that I would be better off working through another group.
You can choose to believe what you wish – that doesn’t make it right. I’ve met a lot of people in my life and I know people who were wildly successful in business and in life and I’ve know failures both. What I’ve also noticed is that attitude plays and important role in success or failure. I’ve also learned that it is impossible to expand a narrow mind because they are generally void of all reason so I don’t waste my time. The facts simply do not support the arguments that many of you have made. Just because you have not succeeded in something doesn’t make it hog wash – it may be you.
Last edited by Able; 03-16-2007 at 11:35 AM.
Reason: Uploaded by accident - hadn't completed the response and spell checked.
03-16-2007, 10:56 AM
So this must be a blow for all your egos, the one Lawrence Berkly study that you have drawn all your reasoning as to why PCO is bad has been exposed by a professional in your own industry has pointed out it has holes in it. Course you will still stand by those results despite the truth because the validate not using any newer technologies and you would have to admit you were wrong or at least made a descision from being uninformed.
03-16-2007, 12:24 PM
No blow to the ego here. Quite the heart warming story. Maybe Able can get those under-employed IT folks into there own Ecoquest company. It still does not provide any useful info on the benefits of the product only the "great" company opportunity... interesting.
Moldi, Can you provide information on what space craft the ecoquest technology was used to clean the air? I still can't find it myself.
Google is a great tool. With out the internet it would be almost impossible to research product info in a timely manner. Without the internet we would only have part of the info. I use it constantly to get up to date product info in the HVAC industry.
Until there is real world proof that these devices do what they claim I can't buy in. If I believed they worked I would sign up today (with you Moldi) and sell them to all of my customers. Sharper Image and Alpine and others made these types of claims also but in the end it was shown that they did not work as advertised and some were even dangerous.
I still hold to the fact that even if your product did exactly what you claim that it is not needed in 99.9 % of homes. A few spores and microbes won't hurt you. If there is a mold or IAQ problem, then the cause needs to be corrected, not masked by an "air purifier".
I have said it before... Source control, Ventilation and Filtration always work.
Good Luck with your Ecoquest business but I can only agree to disagree.
03-16-2007, 04:33 PM
I wasn't really directing that at you. I was actually refering to Genesis' defence of PCO technology, regardless of his oppinion of UVX itself.
Syntropic, Genesis, and Able are all professionals...and it has been brought up several times that pros don't use PCO technology.
03-17-2007, 05:44 PM
Again, I would not be so quick to dismiss the Lawrence Berkeley study. Genesis, as you know the Department of Energy has been behind much of the research on PCO's. They are the major funders for this research (along with United Technologies) and I doubt that they would be that far off base. Besides if you read the study, the PCO worked. It did reduce the VOC's to a sufficient level. Unfortunately, formaldehyde and acetaldehyde were produced as byproducts.
This is not the only study that has found this. As mbarson pointed out there is another study with PCO's in aircraft that found the same thing. And it is not surprising since a number of studies have found that formaldehyde is a byproduct of ozone/VOC reactions. Hydroxyl radicals are also involved in the chemistry of these reactions and are likely suspects in the formation of particles and byproducts. (see Weschler on ozone/hydroxyl radicals)
I am definitely not opposed to photocatalytic oxidation (PCO) technology. In fact, it is clearly one of the most promising developments in dealing with VOC's in indoor environments. I especially like the improvements in pressure drop over banks of carbon. However, it is not a panacea either. It has its pluses and minuses. One minus is formaldehyde production as a byproduct. We can either ignore the facts or do something about it. To prove we have solved the problem we need to do studies showing this. I have not seen them.
Unfortunately, there are many people who have taken the basics of this technology and are making a mockery out of it. Every jakeleg out there is combining titanium dioxide and a UV bulb and claiming the moon.
I like Genesis' company. They are serious about their research. Good engineering is involved. They are combinining technologies that work - including a MeRV 12 filter. They are professionals. That is why we are talking about having their head engineer present at a national convention.
08-01-2007, 05:37 PM
BRAVO to Syntropicsystems and Able.
Like the old ad said, "Try it you'll like it."
Every environment is different as is every immune system. What works for some may not work for others. Almost every professional EcoQuest dealer that I know (and that is a lot of them) will offer you a 30 day RISK FREE trial for you to try the technology in your own home. If you do not notice a real difference in your home in that time you can simply ship the unit back for a full refund.
The company is doing over 200 million dollars a year with just that type of presentation. It must be working for someone or they all would be sending them back and the company would be bust.
I know all sorts of people with HVAC systems in their homes, they check their filters often to make sure they are clean but still, when the sunlight comes through the window, WHA-LA there is all sorts of stuff floating in the ray of sunshine. That stuff is pet dander, human dander, pollen and a host of other particulate that the HVAC system filters did not remove from the air. And that is not the fault fo the HVAC system but simply because the physic of air movement will not allow 100% of the air in a home to go through the filters of an HVAC system.
EcoQuest's tech. effectively removes that particulate from the breatheable air space. Studies by Kansas State University on EcoQuest's RCI technology have found that it kills viruses and bacteria (mold included) on surfaces out away from the unit itself. These findings have been posted on the USDA's website.
But I guess it all boils down to "Try it before you knock it" EcoQuest products are not a threat to HVAC people. They will never replace your customer's heating and air conditioning units. However, if you approach this with an open mind and do some open minded research (including trying the product RISK FREE yourself) it just may be a way to add a lot of $$ to your bottom line. If you don't want to be a dealer yourself, I know a lot of dealers that would be willing to set up a wholesale account for you. Myself included.
If you would like to try a unit, RISK FREE, I will be more than happy to accommadate you if you are seriously researching this with an open mind.
Just for clarification, I am a NORMI Certified Mold Inspector and Biocide Applicator. I inspect for and sanitize mold areas in homes and businesses. I use EcoQuest technologies in the sanitiziing processes.
I also have a file of many testimonials from individuals and businesses who have experience notifiably improved differences in environments when the EcoQuest technologies have been introduced.
If you have any questions or would seriously like to test a product for yourself you can contact me. My contact information is in my profile.
Mold Inspections and Sanitation
Last edited by Admin; 08-01-2007 at 06:26 PM.