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  1. #1

    Please help with Trane decision - XB13, XB14, XL15i, XL16i?

    Greetings and thank you,

    I just bought a house in the Conejo Valley in Southern California. Near Thousand Oaks or Agoura Hills. It is 2 stories with about 1790 sq. feet on the top floor, and 1690 on the lower floor for about 3480 square feet total.

    I am looking at a new Trane system.

    As to the cooling, I am being advised to get a 3.5 ton for the 2nd floor, and a 3 ton for the 1st floor. They could be a 13 SEER XB13, or a 14 SEER XB14, or a 15 SEER XL15i, or a 16 SEER XL16i. I am concerned about electric bills and decibels. My understanding is that the XL15i is the quietest. Based on my calculations, however, I don't think I pay back the increased cost from the XB13 to the XL15i for about 19 years. I'm really torn and would appreciate your help.

    As to the heating, I assume since I care about quietness, I should get a variable speed heater. Is that right? My dealer is recommending a 60K BTU furnace. But 80% or 95%? Single Stage or Double Stage. Again, I could really use your help.

    Thanks so much in advance. I'd be happy to try and answer any questions or give information I missed. I am almost paralyzed with indecision. But I need to move forward right away before I move in.

    -Nic

  2. #2
    Also I'm thinking of getting two Venstar Colortouch thermostats with Skyport WiFi key and an indoor/outdoor temperature cable.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,270
    What did the former resident pay for utilities?

    Why would you need to replace the existing system(s)?
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,270
    I would guess ONE 3-ton heat pump would be sufficient
    for 3,500 square feet in Southern coastal CA

    Heat Loss < 16,000 per floor at 38'F
    ASHRAE 1% 85'F __ 99% 38'F


    TOTAL HEATING and Cooling COST
    ought to be < $500 / year at $0.22/ kwhr

    4TWX5036 / TAM7AOC042 OR EQUAL
    http://www.trane.com/residential/pro...pare/TAM8/TAM7
    http://www.trane.com/residential/pro...re/XL15i/XL16i


    Station: ………… CAMARILLO AIRPORT, CA, US (119.09W,34.21N)
    Station ID: ………… KCMA
    Month …………
    starting ………… HDD ………… CDD
    5/1/2012 ………… 171 ………… 26
    6/1/2012 ………… 100 ………… 36
    7/1/2012 ………… 97 ………… 46
    8/1/2012 ………… 40 ………… 124
    9/1/2012 ………… 47 ………… 112
    10/1/2012 ………… 90 ………… 102
    11/1/2012 ………… 186 ………… 37
    12/1/2012 ………… 332 ………… 3
    1/1/2013 ………… 323 ………… 38
    2/1/2013 ………… 312 ………… 22
    3/1/2013 ………… 236 ………… 21
    4/1/2013 ………… 138 ………… 46
    total ………… 2072 ………… 613
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    The South
    Posts
    2,178
    Stryker

    How would you describe your typical winters?

    Is heating or cooling more important for your location/climate?

    Does your climate have high humidity in the summer?

    What size HVAC are you replacing? What are the problems with present system? Mechanical problems or comfort problems?

    On Trane furnaces, the var speed models to consider would be XV series depending on efficiency you are looking for. Single stage high eff blower model would be the XT series there again depending on efficiency you are looking for.

    On the condensers, you might want to look at the XR15 model.

    Not familiar with Venstar thermostat but you want to verify that it is compatible with any system you are looking at and does not shortchange you on system's capabilities.

    IMO

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,619
    xr 15 with either a xv 80 or xv95 furnace , there is more to unit selection than just pay back.
    We really need change now

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,270
    Quote Originally Posted by tigerdunes View Post
    Stryker

    1. How would you describe your typical winters?
    2. Is heating or cooling more important for your location/climate?
    3. Does your climate have high humidity in the summer?

    4. What size HVAC are you replacing? What are the problems with present system? Mechanical problems or comfort problems?

    On Trane furnaces, the var speed models to consider would be XV series depending on efficiency you are looking for. Single stage high eff blower model would be the XT series there again depending on efficiency you are looking for.

    On the condensers, you might want to look at the XR15 model.

    Not familiar with Venstar thermostat but you want to verify that it is compatible with any system you are looking at and does not shortchange you on system's capabilities.

    IMO
    TigerDunes, We posted @ same time on # 4 & 5

    1. About 55'F average in S.CA

    2. Seems like cooling may be needed for 5 hours ~30 days in a whole year.
    ___ ASHRAE 0.4%/ 1% / 2% = 84.6'F / 81.6'F / 79.2'F
    _________ _ _ 2% means > 79.2'F for 175 hours per year with Wet Bulb (MCWB) at 63'F
    _________ - - 1% means > 81.6'F for 88 hours per year

    3. 9" per Year
    4. Curious, sounds like Noise is the only issue, If any.

    I cannot imagine someone actually proposing what is stated in post #1,
    Unless, Owner requested t'stat at 65'F.
    ... might have penquins as pets or something like that.

    I doubt that I would ever discuss HUGELY OVERSIZED proposal with contractor.
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    The South
    Posts
    2,178
    Thx Dan...

    I saw your post after I posted.

    Best Rgds

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    West Monroe, LA
    Posts
    1,529
    Load cal first then chose a system. Don't want to put the cart before the horse.

    Quietest units that Trane make is XL20i (2) stage with (2) compressors. Then there are the XL16 (2) stage (1) compressor or the XL15 single stage compressor.

    The XR series Is not a loud systems but does have a higher decibel level when turning on and running.

    Chosses are XR16 (2) stage/step (1) compressor. Just the XL16 with out the top and few minor things that does help with quietness. Then you have the XR15 single stage (1) compressor same unit as the XL15 but also without the top and minor things that makes the unit queiter.

    Then there are the XB 13 and XB 14 models which are quiet but not the quietest. Load cal. Ductwork, equipment etc...

    If it were me and not knowing budget I would look at the XL15 or the XR16 systems. The ROI is hard to due in some case but the above mentioned systems are mid range units that when paired with a variable speed furnace or air handler can be a nice system and achive what you are looking for?

    You can put the quietest unit non to man on a ductwork system that is undersized and it want be quiet if anything it will be noisier trying to supply and return air that can't be done unless mods are upgrades are done to the duct system.

    This goes back to my 1st point. Load cal. Needs to be preformed to ensure proper sizing. Ductwork needs to reviewed to see how much it can supply and return.

    FYI Trane is in the process of changing there unit line up a bit for some models.

    XB14=XB16 (single stage)
    XR15=XR16 (single stage)
    XR16=XR17 (2 stage/step) 1 compressor.
    XL16=XL18 (2 stage/step) 1 stage compressor.

    While this changes are coming they are not fully ready for roll
    Out in all models. Nothing will
    Change other then the tages on the units listed above will go to the new model. They will rerate and work on getting this units to achive the seer that Is on the tag.

    This per Trane is due to the market and they want to complete on all levels. While this is a good thing wish they would have later last year or earlier this year so the changes have some time to take place before the summer but guess they felt they needed to moved on this now for the reasons listed above.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Anderson, South Carolina, United States
    Posts
    6,714
    13seer ac would be your best bet since it will rarely get used. No way with your climate should you need 6.5 tons, maybe half that if its a poorly insulated and leaky house. 2-1.5ton units will probably be more than enough.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    West Monroe, LA
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    1,529
    Quote Originally Posted by jtrammel View Post
    13seer ac would be your best bet since it will rarely get used. No way with your climate should you need 6.5 tons, maybe half that if its a poorly insulated and leaky house. 2-1.5ton units will probably be more than enough.
    While this a great point and OP should look further into load cals! It's hard to say from here where I can't see the home if this work but sounds about right or maybe (2) two ton systems that are 2 stage?

    Again we are all guessing what size is right for your home. Thanks why Load cals are so important you don't want oversized systems or undersized systems. You want them to be proper sized for your home and your family.

    Untill this load cal is preformed I would not even think about about signed of on installer installing a new system. If they want then move on to someone who will. Their lose not yours as if you ask for it and they refuse or come up with reasons why they can't one might wonder what else they want do?

  12. #12
    Thank you for all your help. Perhaps I can clarify the weather and a few other things.

    Although the home is about 15 miles to the coastline, it is quite warm. It is not, however, humid. Much warmer than the Camarillo Airport weather station. There can be winter days in the 90s, but that isn't typical. From about June - October, the temperatures can be regularly into the upper 90s. In the winter, the lows are often in the mid-30s. I could not find a the Heating and Cooling Degree Days for the last 12 months, but the weather station is KCAWESTL2.

    So both heating and cooling are important. The current HVAC system is being replaced because it was not maintained at all, it was improperly installed, and it is over 25 years old. Noise is just something I'm sensitive too going forward.

    Catmanacman - I agree, there is more to unit selection than just pay back. But could you tell me what other features to look at and what models best fit those features?

    I hope that helps. The contractor seems good and has answered all my questions. He has great referrals. I think once you see the weather charts, perhaps you'll see the tonnage is appropriate and we are just back to considering the models?

    Thanks again - I really look forward to your replies.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nic Stryker View Post

    Although the home is about 15 miles to the coastline, it is quite warm. It is not, however, humid.
    Much warmer than the Camarillo Airport weather station.

    From about June - October, the temperatures can be regularly into the upper 90s.
    In the winter, the lows are often in the mid-30s.

    I could not find a the Heating and Cooling Degree Days for the last 12 months, but the weather station is KCAWESTL2.

    So both heating and cooling are important.
    The current HVAC system is being replaced because it was not maintained at all, it was improperly installed, and it is over 25 years old.
    Noise is just something I'm sensitive too going forward.
    40,000 BTU/HR Heating at 33'F for a Generic 25 year old house
    2,300 Cooling Degree Days
    590 therms per year

    Ceiling R-24
    Walls R-13
    ACH 0.66 Volume 33,000 ft^3
    Windows 300 Sq Feet U 0.5
    Duct 5,000 BTU/HR

    Station: ____ North Ranch, Westlake Village, CA, US (118.80W,34.19N)
    Station ID: ___ KCAWESTL2

    Month …. HDD ____ Tavg ___ Days … CDD Tavg
    srarting …. ____ ___ …
    10/1/2011 …. 86 ____ ___ 31 … 193 71.2
    11/1/2011 …. 300 ____ 55.0 ___ 30 … 34
    12/1/2011 …. 370 ____ 53.1 ___ 31 … 23
    1/1/2012 …. 243 ____ 57.2 ___ 31 … 60
    2/1/2012 …. 323 ____ 53.5 ___ 28 … 30
    3/1/2012 …. 380 ____ 52.7 ___ 31 … 30
    4/1/2012 …. 238 ____ 57.1 ___ 30 … 76
    5/1/2012 …. 164 ____ 59.7 ___ 31 … 123 69.0
    6/1/2012 …. 74 ____ ___ 30 … 73 67.4
    7/1/2012 …. 65 ____ ___ 31 … 223 72.2
    8/1/2012 …. 23 ____ ___ 31 … 373 77.0
    9/1/2012 …. 37 ____ ___ 30 … 263 73.8
    10/1/2012 …. 130 ____ 60.8 ___ 31 … 122 68.9
    11/1/2012 .. 231 ____ 57.3 ___ 30 … 66
    12/1/2012 .. 429 ____ 51.2 ___ 31 … 11
    1/1/2013 .. 370 ____ 53.1 ___ 31 … 24
    2/1/2013 .. 362 ____ 52.1 ___ 28 … 26
    3/1/2013 .. 272 ____ 56.2 ___ 31 … 66
    4/1/2013 .. 212 ____ 57.9 ___ 30 … 61
    _________ …. 2369 ____ ___ 365 …

    http://www.wunderground.com/weathers...3&yearend=2013
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

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