good to know. I use Eco-h cleaner which is an enzyme based cleaner which can be mixed at different strengths to replace every other chemical in the house. So I wouldn't have to worry about but I will warn future customers. On the ionization, wouldn't the overall ionization increase over a period of a few weeks so that particles would be quickly dropped. Initially I would think that for the overall usefulness of DC and RF ionization (rf is far slower then dc but goes through walls which dc doesn't) couldn't be accurately checked over even 24 hours as the ion count is rizing. I also wonder how long it takes for ionization to clump submicron particles until they were micron particles because if the tests time didn't alot for longer than the time it takes then the count would be larger due to submicron particles that you couldn't read are now turning into particles big enough to be read by your meter? At what weight does gravity pull it out of the air. I read somewhere that submicron particles if not disturbed can hang in the air for as long as 54 days and they don't move with the air...? So the RCI cause the same reaction with the chemicals that the ozone did or it was due to the ozone from RCI. The reason I ask is there is a low oxidation cell for canada that produces next to nothing when it comes to ozone. If that is the problem then I could use the Fresh Air Everest instead. I am glad it was only 60ppb though...it is higher than it should have been but that is still perfectly safe. Was that in the room with it on 250 in 160 sq ft rm? That would be ok.actually higher levels in the smaller room would be ok since it says not to use in rooms that small but the bigger room is more what I am interested in. If you could share the results with me I would appreciate it. You know my email @aol.com
So other than telling my customers not to use pine sol and other like chemicals...though I usually turn them on to the eco h and they use that instead. It works far better than most stuff on a lot. Some things it sucks at but even duct tape adhesive comes right off with it. It's not too bad so far. The ionizer thing is important though.
The ionization does not improve over time. An indoor environment is dynamic with air exchanges and particle infiltration all the time. Particles just don't wait there to be "ionized." The BEST the product will ever do is when it is active in a room with the particles in the room at that instant.
The amount of time a particle remains in the air depends on lots of factors including air exchanges, infiltration, particle size and particle aerodynamics. As we see here the creation of particles comes from alot of sources - including indoor air chemistry. the idea that any product could clump smaller particles together and that they would fall out of the air is simply not proven and probably not true.
The point about the particle creation and the terpenes is not just that one should not use Pine Sol - although it is a good idea to limit scented cleaner use. The point is the Fresh Air device alters the indoor air chemistry in unpredictable and often undesirable ways. That is why I have contended all along that the use of these devices around people with respiratory problems is not a good idea and potentially dangerous.
I have sent you the test results. Anyone else interested in seeing them just send me your e-mail through my website.
I didn't get the email Like I said I will mention the issues with cleaners to future customers. I think as people get into more green technology, like most of the people who would be interested in this would be more likely to not have the types of harmful chemicals like lysol and pine sol.
I can say I was wrong gracefully about the pine sol however I still am having a hard time logically understanding your response on ionization. when an environment is lacking say positive ions, introducing them would take time to where they would all pair up. It seems they would accumulate and if there are left over positives it would cling in an instant to a negative introduced...I don't know. It would be cool if you could paint 50 spores and let them go in a house and run it fopr 24hrs and see the number that are caught....verses particles dropped. The ionization issue seems to be a lack of info on it but solar ionization in the mountains seems to be a good demonstration. Anyway thanks.
Last edited by jrbenny; 06-16-2007 at 07:54 PM.
Reason: removed email
<put it in your profile>
Last edited by jrbenny; 06-16-2007 at 07:54 PM.
Reason: removed email
Since you know that the ozone would cause that reaction, wouldn't it make sense to run the test with just RCI and the purifier off. You could do one set with and one set without. Also, so you don't know what the particles are? Just assuming they are from the terepene? I noticed that the spike only lasted a couple hours...so could you draw the conclusion that the ozone is causing the problem and the RCI is neutralizing it? I am trying to pick your brain for different scenarios because I want to know exactly what it does and doesn't do and then I will take it to the mgrs. I already forwarded your data to a couple people above me and am waiting for a response. IAQA is just like NORMI and MICRO right? I have looked at the Mold Inspection stuff and plan to do a program through them and MICRO so I will have certifications in 4 different IAQ organizations. I am impressed at the HEPA's particle reduction but I am also curious at how if the particle count was a VOC, how does the filter remove it if it isn't a VOC filter. I thought they were fo dry particles? I am not saying any of this to be a dick, just I want to know. Since I am not taking the stance that it is my product versus yours we can just stick to the info, I just don't want you taking this the wrong way since I have become defensive/agressive in the past. What does Genesis have to say about PCO and terepene? Have they done similar tests on their product? The reason I ask is since they are a PCO and we are a photo plasma catalytic oxidation device, his creates no ozone. So that may be a test for you to try. Also I would be curious about the FA Everest too since it is low oxidation with no ozone generator. Thanks for the info.
moldi we have never used Turpentine or pine sol as a testing base. If pine sol was used in an air quality test, there are undetermined elements in pine sol that isn't listed to the public. http://www.thecloroxcompany.com/prod...ndcleaner1.pdf
Known componants of there MSDS sheet
pine oil (turpentine) 8 to 10 %
Alkylacloho ethoxylates 3 to 7 %
Isopropyl alcohol 1 to 5 %
sodium petroleum sulfonate 1 to 5 %
Most air quality labs use toluene or acatone as there base.
And I don't believe VOCs could be considered a particulate because it is in the gasous stage not a solid.
Lots of questions.
We did run the test in both purifier and RCI mode only. The chemical reactions took place in both. In fact the RCI or PCO only mode maxed out the particle counter at over 9,999,999 particles over 0.3 microns per cubic foot.
No, I am not sure what the particles are. If you read the studies, the best guess would be that they are a combination of various aldehydes, ketones, acids and other byproducts. But that is not my job to determine what they are. It would seem that a manufacturer of a product that sells it to the public would have that responsibility. The point is there are alot of reactions taking place with some nasty results.
The spike in results was created by the fact we turned the Fresh Air off. If we had left it on, the reactions would have continued at a high level until the terpenes were completely eaten up.
The RCI mode only had no effect on reducing particles. It would not have a neutralizing effect.
I realize that you are trying to understand what is going on with these reactions and that is good. No offense taken. It is good to see you are not so tied to one product. There are lots more opportunities in this field if you are not.
We have been trying to find other data on PCO/terpene reactions. I have not found any. Research definitely needs to be done. But I will say Genesis has explained some of the reasons why the Ecoquest device could have problems that other PCO products do not have.
What this highlights to me are deficiencies of the Grinshpun/U of C study. These people are professionals. Why they did not do some research into this chemical reaction issue with VOC's I do not know.
So could it be that RCI messes up a particle meter then? If the VOC's can't be particles than that would really mean that RCI messes up a particle meter and nothing more, correct?
The reason why one would use Pine Sol to test is that it is commonly used in indoor environments. Other terpenes are anything with a lemon or citrus scent such as cleaners, baby wipes, furniture polish, etc.. Similar reactions have been reported with linalool alcohol - which is found in perfumes, after shave, sunscreen, etc. etc.. You could also find similar reactions with tobacco smoke as we have seen in some studies with ozone.
What would one prove by testing with acetone and tolulene? I guess this would tell us something about air quality when someone is removing their nail polish or thinning paint - but not much else.
Nothing wrong with the particle counter. These instantaneous reactions with terpenes have been shown in hundreds of experiments with the same types of results. VOC's actually can coagulate to become particles.
Once again the point is not to prove what is going on. The point is that these reactions are creating lots of stuff that is unexpected, unanticipated and undesirable. There is a crying need for further research in this area.
Breatheasy, are you testing a Fresh Air portable room unit or the FA ductwx product designed for the AC duct system??
I'd certainly be interested in test results on the Ductwx product.
He did the Fresh Air. All that was found is that it sends the particle count through the roof when you add certain chemicals like pine sol. As far as the antimicrobial stuff goes you can ask anyone who has had problems and owns one, Though as I stated elsewhere it doesn't do much to lipstick mold. It has been proven to kill or significantly reduce to above 95% on the following:
SARS, Norwalk Virus, MRSE and VRE Strep, Stachybotrys, E Coli, S Aureus, Bacillus spp, pseudonomonis, L. Monocytegenes, Candida Albicans, amd I personally have seen it kill aspergillus, cladosporium, and penicillium problems in relatives houses who bought Fresh Air...I wish it would kill this pink crap though.
If you want more info on the Ductworx you can look at RGF's PHI cell since the Matrixs are made of the same compound and the same TiO2, copper, silver and rhodium paint as RCI, the same 100nm-300nm bulb (notice the ductworx light says RGF on it) Also looking up stuff on Air Source helps too even though that is a pathetic phi cell compared to the rest it still seems to have an extremely large ammount of satisfied customers. RGF makes that one too. The only significant difference with RCI and PHI is the exposure space on the matrix. A 14" RCI has 10x the surface space of the 14" phi, so basically RCI just does what phi does but faster since it creates a lot more oxidisers.