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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    39

    PHI Cell

    DOES NOT WORK FOR REMOVING ODORS,BACTERIA,MOLD, PERIOD.

    I will show you later, experimental failure.
    You can not show me an residental, commercial application with reduced bacteria mold or odors PERIOD FROM PHI CELL APPLICATION.

  2. #28
    Moldi
    I finally received a Fresh Air with RCI to test. I have been working with it for the last day. Some interesting results so far. However, I want to make sure I am testing it at the optimal setting for the room size. I have two rooms - one is 160 square feet, the other is 400 square feet. I have set the Fresh Air at 250 square feet and a low fan setting for the first and 500 square feet and a medium fan setting for the second. Is this correct?

    We are testing for ozone production, particles and reactions with a terpene (Pind Sol). We are comparing results to a small room HEPA. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

    (By the way I found no reference in the U of C report on settings they used.)

  3. #29
    Well the 160sq ft is a smaller application for what it is designed. It is for 250 and above but since you are experimenting try it with the 250. I would run it on normal in the small room and 250 in the larger. Also, especially in the small room if you use the ozone turn the fan up as high as you can stand it. I leave mine on high all the time. They need at least 40%RH to function propperly and will work better up to about 80%RH. The ozone would be stronger around the machine with the fan lower. We tell our customers to use the sq ft setting closest but never higher than what the size of the room is. I still am selling the and using them while remediating but I am not all EQ cultmember anymore. I do stand by the products but My main focus is mold right now.

    Allank- You must have had a bad one cuz that is the thing the PHI and RCI do the quickest is eliminate odors. Everything from candles to potpouri to dirty socks. Maybe your air was too dry. KSU proved the antimicrobial killing ability enough that the Dept of Agriculture talks about it and U of C proved it destroys over 90% ov bioaerosols in the 1st hour of use.

    BE- Keep me posted on your results. I know you can't really controll a lived in house setting and there are tons of variables but you should put one on each floor of your house or since you are an HVAC guy, take a Fresh Air and a Ductworx and do air samples and particle samples. I was wrong to attack filters so much since with the ionization clumping submicron particles it would enable the HEPA to collect more. I think the combination of the two would be great. I just did a remediation and I went out on a limb using the fresh air in the place of the air scrubber and it worked great. In 2 days there was barely anything on an air sample.

    Also BE don't forget to do the chemical tests with just RCI and no ozone too so we can see RCI by itself.

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    39

    We had 18 units.

    Like I say we had 18 units in ductwork. We also had mold and bacteria in rooms.
    I also have a lab report. I know they don't work.

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    39

    Also particle counts were taken.

    The particle counts can only be used for reference. You need air sample. There is no difference in particle counts. Also some odors are gas and would not show up. Plain and simple they don't work or every home in America would have one.

  6. #32
    Moldi
    Thanks. Looks like I have some more work to do.

    Allank
    I agree on the particle counts. I am not doing any testing on molds or odors.

  7. #33
    Allan- I have yet to see anything like that about RCI. RCI has a lot more reactions goin on since the matrix is larger. I grow mushrooms and have been experimenting with RCI and have had great results. If the humidity in the houses you put them in was less than 40%RH then mold would grow. I just know that alll the units I have sold to people with light mold contamination and musty odors haven't had a problem since RCI. My mom's cellar smelled awful and within 12 hrs the smell was gone. As for an air sample it really doesn't help much because it doesn't tell if the spores are viable. But I took before and after micro 5's and there was at least a 50% reduction.

  8. #34
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Lubbock Texas
    Posts
    773
    This ought to be interesting. Jim try not to rip him to bad Jim.Ten bucks says you get the craziest results yet.
    Oh and by the way we met with the EPA last week in DC And I think you will see them taking a few steps back on the DOE paper they did with Berkly. The DOD paper that Dugway Proving Grounds did about us blew them out of the water. We also got challenged at the University of Cincinnati recently ,and did well enough to get a L.E.E.Ds accreditation with a bad application of our unit.

  9. #35
    Genesis
    Not done yet with the testing. I had to start over on some of it after receiving info from Moldi. This makes me even more disappointed with the University of Cincinnatti testing. They never say what settings they are using. Given some of their findings I suspect that it varied depending on the results they were trying to achieve.

    I saw that you guys were "guests" at the CIAQ meeting. I was trying to listen in but got stuck on a bid review. Can't wait to see the minutes.

  10. #36
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Lubbock Texas
    Posts
    773
    When U of C tested our gaming special that is designed for casinos and bingo halls . They tested it for VOCs only . A company by the name of Prism Analytical Technologies Inc did the lab work if this helps any.
    Normally all testing we do is in the ppm range. They used ng/L as there detection limits. We have found that there is very little activity on a catalyst when you reach the 30 ppm range. And if you work in the ppb range it is very hard for the metering equipment to give you consistent readings. We have only found a few labs in the country that can do proper testing in this range.

    You do know particulate will eventually fall to the ground so do be to lenient.

  11. #37
    BE,

    You are right about the lack of controls on the U of C report. It seems they didn't even read the manual for applications since they used it in a room smaller than its minimum application. I still like the product and have had good results most of the time but I will say that when I use my heat it drys out the air too much and it makes the product pretty useless, so the humidity is a major factor minimally 40%RH. I would try the experiments at 40%, 50%, 60%, and 70% if you can. I want to see the difference. I do believe it kills stuff good but not up to 3000sq ft. It will cause a reduction in microbes but not 99.7%. Most of my apartment is good but I have a bacteria that seems to grow anyway. It slows it down but it doesn't stop it. I don't trust it for 3000sq ft but 1500 I would be confident in. It stopped the mold but this pink stuff comes back.

    Remember that the Fresh Air and the 9" ductworx are the actual "Fresh Air System" and that is where they get their numbers. They tend to leave that out when they sell one or the other.

    I still use them after remediations and they do pretty good but it is like any product. It is cool, does work for a lot of things but it is more hyped up than it needs to be....and I was just as guilty.....I am in no way saying it is a bad product, just that it isn't as perfect as I thought it was.

    Also like I said though, I grow mushrooms and the contamination on the cakes is out of control whereas with the fresh air most of them are clean. I don't use a Pressure cooker to sterilize cuz if the FA works as good as it says I shouldn't need one....unless of course my substrate has contamns in it...
    So I would say if I had to rate it I would say it kills 80% of the crap in your house, maybe 90% but 99% is way too generous.

  12. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by allank View Post
    DOES NOT WORK FOR REMOVING ODORS,BACTERIA,MOLD, PERIOD.

    I will show you later, experimental failure.
    You can not show me an residental, commercial application with reduced bacteria mold or odors PERIOD FROM PHI CELL APPLICATION.
    Look up 5 hawk ? Air purification....they used an RCI cell in a courthouse and took tests...so that was a real life application where they had a problem and after didn't.

  13. #39
    Well, we completed the first phase of testing. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I have tons of data - way too much to share here. But here are some initial conclusions that I have:

    1. The ionizer part of the device will decrease particles at least in some cases (one test it did, one it did not). The best it did was a 36% reduction of particles at 0.3 microns. A small HEPA filter in the same room with just 40 cfm reduced the particle count by 47%. the MERV 8 comparison is probably pretty accurate for a small room (160 sq. feet)

    2. It produces ozone both in the Ionizer/RCI mode and the RCI only mode. In one test in the Ionizer/RCI mode the ozone level reached 60 ppb. Otherwise the ozone level was below 50 ppb.

    3. The emissions from the device created substantial reactions with the terpene in both the Ionizer/RCI mode and the RCI only mode. In fact the particle count maxed out my particle counter at 9,999,999 in the RCI only mode in two hours.

    The relative humidity did not seem to make too much of a difference. One of the tests was done at 49%, one at 62% and one at 69%. all produced approximately the same results.

    There are a number of chemical reactions going on. I am not sure of the chemistry but I can guarantee you the byproducts are not carbon dioxide, water and oxygen. After one test my popularity went down substantially because of eye irritation, odor issues and breathing problems from my fellow workers.

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