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  1. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfshadow View Post
    The consumer, aka patient, is isolated from the true cost of the procedure by two middlemen, the employer and insurance company. This has allowed doctors, hospitals and pharmaceutical companies to increase their rates as they see fit, independently of what people are willing to pay. The average person could not afford to pay what the hospitals would like to charge and is a massive check on prices rising, and will even force prices down due to competition. People do not consider price when they are looking for a doctor because they don't have to. Also doctors don't care if they charge an insurance company $30,000 for a test that cost $5,000 because they know the insurance company can afford it where a normal person can not.

    If you want to see where market forces are actually working in the health care industry look at lasik eye surgery. It's not covered by most insurance companies and the cost drops every year.

    That is very brief and it's much more involved, I did not touch on the esculationing administrators at the hospitals and insurance companies. The true cost of health care is much smaller than it looks when you get rid of the cost of managing insurance plans. There are people who all they do is shuffle paper work around between doctors and insurance companies. My sister is one of them.

    A true free market approach to healthcare would be to eliminate healthcare insurance in it's current form, implement catastrophic insurance policies, and tax free health savings accounts to deal with annual check ups, tests and non-life threatening illness. I would prefer a local approach to deal with the needy because the small a program it is the less prone to corruption it is.
    Not only do people not care what a doctor or hospital charges but they don't care how many times they use the insurance. Unlike car insurance, there is no penalty for for excessive usage or being sickly. But you'd have to admit that the system is running exactly the way the hospitals, doctors, and insurance companies want it run. Otherwise, they'd have the power to change it.

    What I don't understand is why the insurance companies aren't screaming blood murder over paying $20,000 for a procedure that the hospital will accept $5,000 for. If the hospitals are overcharging the insurance companies to cover their deadbeat loses then it should be provable in black and white in a court of law. How can a contractor blatantly say, or be proven, that he's charging you more because the last customer stiffed him? Since when are prices on a menu determined by your gross annual income.

  2. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    Not only do people not care what a doctor or hospital charges but they don't care how many times they use the insurance. Unlike car insurance, there is no penalty for for excessive usage or being sickly. But you'd have to admit that the system is running exactly the way the hospitals, doctors, and insurance companies want it run. Otherwise, they'd have the power to change it.

    What I don't understand is why the insurance companies aren't screaming blood murder over paying $20,000 for a procedure that the hospital will accept $5,000 for. If the hospitals are overcharging the insurance companies to cover their deadbeat loses then it should be provable in black and white in a court of law. How can a contractor blatantly say, or be proven, that he's charging you more because the last customer stiffed him? Since when are prices on a menu determined by your gross annual income.
    Simple answer is that insurance companies want health care to look more expensive then it is to keep their customer base. If it is not expensive then you don't need the insurance company.

  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfshadow View Post
    Simple answer is that insurance companies want health care to look more expensive then it is to keep their customer base. If it is not expensive then you don't need the insurance company.
    A way they do that is by showing a procedure costs $5,000 but your wonderful insurance company negotiated it down to $3,000. These fake figures always appear on your EOB (explanation of benefits). But a cash or medicare patient will only pay about $1,500.

  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    A way they do that is by showing a procedure costs $5,000 but your wonderful insurance company negotiated it down to $3,000. These fake figures always appear on your EOB (explanation of benefits). But a cash or medicare patient will only pay about $1,500.
    even the cash price is.inflated due to people being grateful for getting a "huge" discount.

  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidj001 View Post
    obamacare was dreamed up by the republicans? back that up please

    Basically, ObamaCare is Romney/Kennedy care from Massachusetts. Go look at what the M*******s have and compare it to NobamaCare

    It's frighteningly similar
    "Arguing with liberals...it's like playing chess with a pigeon; no matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, crap on the board and strut around like it's victorious." -- Anonymous

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmac00 View Post
    Basically, ObamaCare is Romney/Kennedy care from Massachusetts. Go look at what the M*******s have and compare it to NobamaCare

    It's frighteningly similar
    Actually it originated in 1989 from the heritage foundation with Newt Gingrich as a large backer. There is a decent forbes article breaking down just how the individual mandate came about. I linked it earlier in this thread.

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfshadow View Post
    Actually it originated in 1989 from the heritage foundation with Newt Gingrich as a large backer. There is a decent forbes article breaking down just how the individual mandate came about. I linked it earlier in this thread.
    still sux
    "Arguing with liberals...it's like playing chess with a pigeon; no matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, crap on the board and strut around like it's victorious." -- Anonymous

  8. #47
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    My landscaper is a little Irishman, whose mother just died back in Ireland. They called an ambulance for her but she died of respiratory failure on the 30 mile ride to the nearest hospital. There were three hospitals close by but the government shut them all down due to costs and are doing so all over the UK. You people who voted for Obama and his socialized medicine didn't believe us but it is being put in place all over the world. Welcome to the New World Order. God have mercy on us!

  9. #48
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    The health care bill was not created by Obama.

    The Democrats first attempted to bring a Socialized health care program to America back in the 70's when Carter was in office.
    Carter and Ted Kennedy hated each other, most likely because Carter created a lot of waves because he had a Christian background and considered himself the leader when he was President.
    Ted Kennedy tried to oust Carter by running against him for President, but no one wanted Ted Kennedy or his health care program.

    also, the health care program had a big flaw. during the 70's they started to implement mandatory car insurance, and everyone knew at that time it wasn't legal. that's why states allowed people to buy a bond instead of going to a company, because it was illegal to force people to go to a company and buy a product.
    Very few people in America would have supported a mandatory health care insurance, it was way too soon.

    what is a Socialized program?
    that's when the government forces you to buy something, then people decide what, if any, benefits you get from it.
    everything else is just propaganda.

    Obama ran against Hillary and both of them knew who ever won would get the ARTIFICIAL credit for passing the Health Care Bill.
    It was so unpopular that while Hillary thought it would help her campaign, Obama was against it and sarcastically said "I can cure homelessness by forcing everyone to buy a house"
    Obama won.

    Now during Obama's term, health care reached a critical stage.
    even though "capitalist" health care made all of the companies rich, they could no longer raise prices. Companies didn't want the expense, and neither did individuals, why should people without health problems buy expensive services? just to contribute to some companies profits? People made a CHOICE to go without.
    Obama didn't win office by being a rebel. They came to him and told him now is the time to pass a health care bill, they assured him that generations to come would lie and prop up his reputation for however long this country still exists.
    Obama supported the illegal health care bill.

    Obama's re-election came up, and Republican Mitt Romney was chosen to be his running opponent.
    Mitt Romney was the guy who passed the state prototype of the health care bill in Massachusetts, so on the odd chance there was a landslide, no matter who the public voted for, the Health Care Bill would survive.
    But the fact was, no one was going to allow "the first black president, in the history of the United States" to be disgraced by being a one-term President. Obama would have really had to screw up bad to be removed from office. (the health care bill should have done it, but didn't)

    The bill went through Congress and people were bribed and lied to to get it passed.
    politicians acted like they were against it, just so they could get more bribe money.
    remember that state where the politician said he'd vote for it, but his state was exempt, then after it passed they said his state wasn't exempt?

    Then , the bill went to the Supreme Court. and instead of having Justice Kennedy cast the swing vote, turncoat Justice Roberts passed the bill claiming it was a tax, and since the Supreme Court wrongfully told farmers in the past how much crop they can grow, The Health Care Bill of today is legal, ...once again showing proof that the Republicans are just as bad as the Democrats.
    The whole history of car insurance and the option to buy a bond instead of insurance, because mandatory insurance was illegal, has been erased from history.

    What happens now?
    the Government , pharmaceuticals, the health care companies, and insurance companies now have an endless money-well to draw funds from.
    Prices forever increase, benefits forever decrease.
    People drop dead in line, no one gets what they think they need, they no other options, and there will be another never ending crisis to control the way people vote.
    Jobs become part-time, or non-existant, to avoid expenses.

    A lot of people in the future are going to ask, "i get nothing for this why do i have to pay for it?".
    In the same way our historical tacticians turned the most hated President in history, Abraham Lincoln , into a hero, is the way they are going to talk about Obama, "The brilliant black President, who was a Constitutional scholar, who found an intricate way to bring health care to the masses!".
    They will lie about the way things were before the health care bill was passed.
    Quite frankly, i'll be glad i'm dead during those days.

  10. #49
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    Decided to delete this while I consider what to post.

    Wolf please read.
    http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html

  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by hearthman View Post
    My landscaper is a little Irishman, whose mother just died back in Ireland. They called an ambulance for her but she died of respiratory failure on the 30 mile ride to the nearest hospital. There were three hospitals close by but the government shut them all down due to costs and are doing so all over the UK. You people who voted for Obama and his socialized medicine didn't believe us but it is being put in place all over the world. Welcome to the New World Order. God have mercy on us!
    Putting up a 300,000 square foot building at our hospital for women's health, about $250M. Also putting up a 91,000-square-foot diagnostic imaging building, only $59-million though. Still finishing up a couple of floors of Institute for Advanced Medicine building. Other hospitals in town have their own developments going on. I guess we are bucking the trend.
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

  12. #51
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    Dec 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfshadow View Post
    Remember brain, that medical prices are already artificially inflated due to employer provided healthcare insurance. There has been no market pressures on the health care industry, to keep the prices in check for decades. You actually have to go back to the HMO act or even ww2 to find when the industry competed on price.
    And that is the WHOLE problem. Insurance companies are a necessary evil because the health care industry is so inefficient and sloppy. They should be made to compete just like every other business because don't forget the hospitals are businesses. Big businesses. If healthcare was affordable health insurance would go away.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2

  13. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by boilerman856 View Post
    And that is the WHOLE problem. Insurance companies are a necessary evil because the health care industry is so inefficient and sloppy. They should be made to compete just like every other business because don't forget the hospitals are businesses. Big businesses. If healthcare was affordable health insurance would go away.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2
    Health insurance companies are the reason hospitals don't compete. You go back a hundred years, before ww2 and the rise of employer provided health care and you find hospitals advertising and competing on price. If you do some digging you can find old advertisements for maternity wards and emergency rooms. This all ended when employees began offering medical coverage as a way of attracting workers because wages where frozen during. No insurance companies are not a necessary evil. They are the problem and they have huge interest in keeping the prices high. They are deliberately distorting the prices because if the prices are not high, people don't need them.

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