Has the Greenspeed/Evo Extreme been out long enough to get an idea on reliability?

[wensteph]

We're in the process of designing a new house, although that seems to be on hold due to no offer on our present house. General plan is to build a tight house with foam and good windows. I plan on having Manual J, D and S run by an independent firm to have as a second opinion to contractor.

The Greenspeed/Evolution Extreme is an attractive option. I have a cousin that is a 50 plus year Carrier dealer in Houston (similar weather, but we have longer seasons) and he is very big on the 2 speed Infinity HP and not so much on the Greenspeed, but I have the feeling he leans toward the tried and true for his customers.

Is there a record of reliability being established on the Greenspeed? I've read comments on how expensive electronic boards, etc can or would be.

Also, if I go with a Greenspeed I think that would restrict the contractors I could have bid on the job if the installation of these does require additional training. A friend that is a home builder (may or may not do mine) currently uses a independent HVAC company, if that is the right word for someone that isn't a factory authorized Big Four dealer. Very competitive price wise and he can install Carrier or Bryant. I can't judge duct sizing, but I have seen some of his installations and the quality of his ductwork installation is outstanding. I wonder if I will have to scratch a company such as his off the list if I choose the latest generation equipment?

The new house will probably be similar to our present one and that is 2500 sq ft first floor, 1100 sq ft second floor with a 400 sq ft bonus room over the garage. From reading the forum, I imagine the Manual J will allow two 2 ton units, one up and one down and I would probably lean to a mini-split for the over garage bonus room. I will also be very open to a ventilating dehumidifier and something like an Aprilaire motorized damper for fresh air exchange.

[teddy bear]

Manual J will allow two 2 ton units, one up and one down and I would probably lean to a mini-split for the over garage bonus room. I will also be very open to a ventilating dehumidifier and something like an Aprilaire motorized damper for fresh air exchange.

I like the way you think. Consider the Ultra-Aire whole house ventilating dehumidifier instead of the Aprilaire. The UA is higher efficiency and the pioneer of the wh hs dehumidifier. Also a co-sponsor of this site. Please!
Keep up posted.
Regards TB

[jtrammel]

The technology has been around for I'd say ~ 10 years in residential equipment (ductless minisplits) and tge nordyne IQ drive has been out 4-5 years. I think the greenspeed is within the last year on the market, Manufactures test, especially cutting edge stuff, units internally and limited field testing for a couple years before releasing them to the market. Out of warranty parts would be astronomically high but in 10 years they will probably be more common so the price shouldn't be as much as this is where the industry is headed IMO, but who knows.

[bmathews]

They had some issues the first year out. I think they are beginning year 3 of Greenspeed. For the size house, putting 2 on wouldn't be advised in price alone. You could put 1 greenspeed/extreme on and put zoning in which would work great. As I said, they are quite pricey, you can almost put an entire system in for price of condenser alone. Carrier has an erv that you could use that will wire into the Infinity controller as well.

[BaldLoonie]

The variable speed scroll is new to residential HVAC. Minis and Nordyne use an inverter rotary. Little rotaries are proven, the jury with me is still out on big ones since I'm old enough to remember Fedders's foray (if that's how you spell it) with rotaries in big heat pumps.

[mark beiser]

The technology has been around for I'd say ~ 10 years in residential equipment

Add 20 years to that.

[wensteph]

Teddy Bear, I would use Ultra-Air for the dehumidifier. The Aprilaire unit is a section of duct with a motorized damper and controller just to bring in fresh air.

http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewpro...Fcuj4Aod1DAADQ



bmatthews, an ERV isn't off the table, but opinions I have read seem to indicate you don't get the efficiency advantage residential as the larger commercial installs. Bang for the buck, but I suppose you could make the same argument about the Greenspeed. If I went that route I would probably source out Goodman's ERV since it's probably the same unit as the other ones. Also, zoning isn't ruled out, but to me that's a conversation to have with the contractor when I have plans and the heat load figured out. Right now I'm just trying to be an informed customer while I wait for someone to buy my house.

[firecontrol]

We're in the process of designing a new house, although that seems to be on hold due to no offer on our present house. General plan is to build a tight house with foam and good windows. I plan on having Manual J, D and S run by an independent firm to have as a second opinion to contractor.

If you're having an independent firm do the calcs (and paying for it) I would assume that it's an engineering firm. Why not supply this information to the HVAC contractors being considered and have them quote the job using it's numbers?

The Greenspeed/Evolution Extreme is an attractive option. I have a cousin that is a 50 plus year Carrier dealer in Houston (similar weather, but we have longer seasons) and he is very big on the 2 speed Infinity HP and not so much on the Greenspeed, but I have the feeling he leans toward the tried and true for his customers.

Is there a record of reliability being established on the Greenspeed? I've read comments on how expensive electronic boards, etc can or would be.

A qualified and "certified" dealer can offer 10 year parts and labor warranties.

Also, if I go with a Greenspeed I think that would restrict the contractors I could have bid on the job if the installation of these does require additional training. A friend that is a home builder (may or may not do mine) currently uses a independent HVAC company, if that is the right word for someone that isn't a factory authorized Big Four dealer. "An independent HVAC company that is used by a builder" usually means that the builder has found a shop that will make sure that their bid for the HVAC comes in at a predetermined price for the size and price per square foot the builder dictates. This same type of HVAC contractor will usually always put what the builder tells them to do or what he'll "let" them do ahead of your wishes all in the name of making sure they keep on the "preferred list" with the general contractor. Very competitive price wise and he can install Carrier or Bryant. I can't judge duct sizing, but I have seen some of his installations and the quality of his ductwork installation is outstanding. Pretty never equates to quality. Have any builder give you his list of homes built 3 years or older that used the same sub-contractors he guarantees will be used on your project. Talk to the owners and see how they perceive the quality of work, the responsiveness to problems or concerns, if warranty issues were handled promptly and without cost to you and their real life utility bills.I wonder if I will have to scratch a company such as his off the list if I choose the latest generation equipment?

The new house will probably be similar to our present one and that is 2500 sq ft first floor, 1100 sq ft second floor with a 400 sq ft bonus room over the garage. From reading the forum, I imagine the Manual J will allow two 2 ton units, one up and one down and I would probably lean to a mini-split for the over garage bonus room. I will also be very open to a ventilating dehumidifier and something like an Aprilaire motorized damper for fresh air exchange.

General contractors as a rule utilize those sub-contractors that make them the most money on the job as a whole. That's your money, that you paid to the general, going into the general's pocket as pure profit (minus cost to shuffle paperwork and the subs quote) for work they didn't have to perform and usually shed all responsibility for once they turn the keys over to you. I'm not saying it's a bad way of doing things, but I would caution anyone having a new home built to consider that if the general contractor is the one to hire all of the subs working on the job, you in most cases get the "lowest bid" in those areas. It's usually why their preferred/recommended HVAC contractor won't be one of the "Big Four". IMO

[wensteph]

firecontrol, I agree with all of your points. There are several engineering/architectural firms in the SE that advertise services. I would certainly share that with the HVAC contractor up front. I'm wouldn't play gotcha.

I couldn't name you a framing or roofing contractor in Savannah and darn few plumbers and electricians that do new construction. HVAC, I'm trying to be better informed on. This will be the contractor that I'll have input in choosing and "low bid" isn't my most important criteria.

[teddy bear]

Teddy Bear, I would use Ultra-Air for the dehumidifier. The Aprilaire unit is a section of duct with a motorized damper and controller just to bring in fresh air.

http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewpro...Fcuj4Aod1DAADQ



bmatthews, an ERV isn't off the table, but opinions I have read seem to indicate you don't get the efficiency advantage residential as the larger commercial installs. Bang for the buck, but I suppose you could make the same argument about the Greenspeed. If I went that route I would probably source out Goodman's ERV since it's probably the same unit as the other ones. Also, zoning isn't ruled out, but to me that's a conversation to have with the contractor when I have plans and the heat load figured out. Right now I'm just trying to be an informed customer while I wait for someone to buy my house.

The Ultra-Aire with the DEH 3000 controls the dehumidifier and includes a digital timer to open and close an optional fresh air damper. The ventilation timer allows time of day and on/off ratios to provide precise control of the amount and timing of the fresh air.
Keep us posted on how it all works.
Regards TB

[motoguy128]

firecontrol, I agree with all of your points. There are several engineering/architectural firms in the SE that advertise services. I would certainly share that with the HVAC contractor up front. I'm wouldn't play gotcha.

I couldn't name you a framing or roofing contractor in Savannah and darn few plumbers and electricians that do new construction. HVAC, I'm trying to be better informed on. This will be the contractor that I'll have input in choosing and "low bid" isn't my most important criteria.

Keep in mind that the SE is very tricky for sizing. It's more humid that it is hot. Meaning, that it's more tropical. That mean peak design tmepratures are usually in the low 90's, but humidity is very high . that makes sizing even more ciritical and oversizing more detrimental, since you frequently will have lower load conditions with very high outdoor dewpoints. Its' ideal to have a whole house dehumidifier, especially for late summer and fall. A typical summer morning is probably 70F dewpoint but only 75-80F for example, whereas in a place like most of Texas where it's hot AND humid, it would be 85-90F before noon and reach 100F on most summer days. Haveing a lot of cooling degree days does not equauate to a hgiher design temperature. Meaning just because it's hot more often, doesn't mean that you need a larger AC unit.

Take the Pacific Northtwest. They have a LOT of cooling degree days because it's cool most of the year, but the design temperature will only be maybe 20-30F. They actually use more heating than where I am in Iowa because we have 4 full seasons and while it gets a lot colder, winter still only lasts 6 months. SE MI for example has a higher desing temp than SE Iowa, but winter last more like 7 months because it's further north, but the extreme lows a temepratures by snow, clouds and the great lakes.

[teddy bear]

If you live in an area that has +60^F outdoor dew points and have occupants in the home, you have minimum of a 2,000 buts per hour of latent load. As the outdoor dew point rinses to 70^F, the latent cooling load rises to 4-5,000 btus of latent cooling. If it is raining, you have no sensible cooling load until the outdoor temp rises +75^F. How can any a/c remove moisture without enough cooling load to load the coil with moisture? You just live with the problem and hope you have dry year. I have track your favorite VS a/c that simply can not control moisture until the cooling load exceeds 50% of the rated capacity. In addition, the occupants complained about the 3^F overcool as well as marginal humidity control. The VS a/cs are slightly better than single speed a/cs but not perfect.
With a whole house dehumidifier, you get the ideal a/c temp and %RH with out expensive, complicated technology, and marginal comfort. An additional benefit is <50%RH without any cooling. This save big energy bucks when the home is not occupied for several days.
Regards TB
Regards TB

[wensteph]

If I read this right, then I've got 5-6 months of muggy, but not particularly hot days. Red line average high dew point, blue line average low.

[hvacvegas]

I seem to remember another big manufacturer trying variable speed compressors, and them failing miserably.

Put in a tried and true system, and when you go to replace that system put in the super system.

If it ends up being that the greenspeed IS awesome, then great. Good for them. You missed out on a little bit better comfort, and a slight amount of energy savings.

If it ends up with greenspeed being a complete flop, then you've saved yourself years of headache, and more money than the system could have possibly saved you.


Honestly, I'm still not sold on some manufacturers modulating furnaces, and they've been out for years.

I think you'll be more comfortable dumping the money from the greenspeed upgrade, into Ultra-Aire equipment.

[dan sw fl]

If I read this right, then I've got 5-6 months of muggy, but not particularly hot days. Red line average high dew point, blue line average low.

RED-LINE TIME PERIOD > 60'F needs A/C and/or dehumidification.
That's just ABOUT 7 months ... April - October.

NICE ILLUSTRATION.!

[dan sw fl]

We're in the process of designing a new house, although that seems to be on hold due to no offer on our present house. General plan is to build a tight house with foam and good windows. I plan on having Manual J, D and S run by an independent firm to have as a second opinion to contractor.

I will also be very open to a ventilating dehumidifier and something like an Aprilaire motorized damper for fresh air exchange.

http://pros.marvin.com/benefits-feat...windows-doors/

SHGC < 0.38

VT > 0.58 ... Light Transmittance

[motoguy128]

If I read this right, then I've got 5-6 months of muggy, but not particularly hot days. Red line average high dew point, blue line average low.

Absolutely. The killer is times when outdoor dewpoints are above 50F, but outdoor temperatures are under 80F. Even more, since you'll hav low-E windows, your sensible heat gain will be even lower. With a good spray foam desing and if you can pick materials to maximize thermal mass (tile rock, stone, concrete, plaster (I know nobody does plaster anymore), hardwood) WITHIN the insulated envelope, it will make a huge difference. Wood also acts like a dessicant and will level off spikes in humidity. For example depsite being over 75 and sunny outside for more than 16 hours, my home only gained 4F over that period and my AC never even came on. The high amount of mass in my home, took a long time to heat up. It also takes a long time to cool off.

For heating, if you insulate it well, in your climate you'r rarely if ever need heating, even wiht a conventional heat pump. I would look at a regular 2 stage heat pump system with humidity control and ventilation controls. A mid range system like a Carrier Performance/Comfrot series system or Trane XR series would work well with a Honeywell IAQ thermostat and a whole house dehumidifier and ERV.


Look at that chart, with a spray foam house, you have about 4 months of heating but you lower rarely get under even 35F, 3 months where you probably only need a dehumidifier with good shading, a cool roof design and low-e windows, 2 months of moderately hot weather when it's still very humid but you only need a little AC, so the dehumidifier is still improtant, then 3 months of hot weather whenre hte AC can do most all of hte dehumidification if designed well.

In your climate, a sucessful building desing would only need a 2 ton heat pump for heating and cooling loads for a home as large as 3000sqft if it had a dehumidifier to manage the latent load.

Again, think mass. If I could build a home, it would use a lot of concerete, tile, brick, stone and stucco and hardwood.

[teddy bear]

Absolutely. The killer is times when outdoor dewpoints are above 50F, but outdoor temperatures are under 80F. Even more, since you'll hav low-E windows, your sensible heat gain will be even lower. With a good spray foam desing and if you can pick materials to maximize thermal mass (tile rock, stone, concrete, plaster (I know nobody does plaster anymore), hardwood) WITHIN the insulated envelope, it will make a huge difference. Wood also acts like a dessicant and will level off spikes in humidity. For example depsite being over 75 and sunny outside for more than 16 hours, my home only gained 4F over that period and my AC never even came on. The high amount of mass in my home, took a long time to heat up. It also takes a long time to cool off.

For heating, if you insulate it well, in your climate you'r rarely if ever need heating, even wiht a conventional heat pump. I would look at a regular 2 stage heat pump system with humidity control and ventilation controls. A mid range system like a Carrier Performance/Comfrot series system or Trane XR series would work well with a Honeywell IAQ thermostat and a whole house dehumidifier and ERV.


Look at that chart, with a spray foam house, you have about 4 months of heating but you lower rarely get under even 35F, 3 months where you probably only need a dehumidifier with good shading, a cool roof design and low-e windows, 2 months of moderately hot weather when it's still very humid but you only need a little AC, so the dehumidifier is still improtant, then 3 months of hot weather whenre hte AC can do most all of hte dehumidification if designed well.

In your climate, a sucessful building desing would only need a 2 ton heat pump for heating and cooling loads for a home as large as 3000sqft if it had a dehumidifier to manage the latent load.

Again, think mass. If I could build a home, it would use a lot of concerete, tile, brick, stone and stucco and hardwood.

Could not have said it myself. Change the dehumidifier to a ventilating whole house dehumidifier for fresh air ventilation to purge indoor pollutants during calm warm weather. That;s all. Ok, an Ultra-Aire would be nice.
Regards TB