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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
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    North Richland Hills, Texas
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    14,914
    Quote Originally Posted by dan sw fl View Post
    The Texas construction permitting set-up definitely seems quite weird.

    HOW does one obtain a Construction PERMIT withOUT a HEATING & COOLING LOAD ANALYSIS?

    I guess Texas must be far behind many other states in their Residential Building code.!
    Texas is a "home rule" state, so while the statewide codes in Texas are up to date with the current codes, each local AHJ is free to adopt, or not adopt, whatever codes they want, and all code enforcement is local, with no state oversight.
    Even in municipalities that have "strict" code enforcement, it is very spotty.

    In theory, all HVAC contractors are required to comply with the statewide codes as a condition of our licensing, or we can face administrative penalties from the state, but it just doesn't happen, because there has to be a complaint filed by a consumer, or local AHJ, before the state becomes involved.
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    south louisiana
    Posts
    2,991
    here in La. the load calc is submitted...but when on the end the
    3 ton unit is suddenly a 5 ton unit..there is no penality.
    sometimes the 3 ton unit is two 3 ton units..cause
    there isn't a 6 ton unit.

    too much of that bigger is better mentality in this good
    ol boy state.

    by end of project... after homeowner has been told that:
    hvac company won't warranty 3 ton unit,
    that 3 tons won't cool when they have 100 people over on 4th of july,
    and that when one unit goes out..they will have a cool
    place to go...
    the homeowner overpays for equipment they didn't need to start with.
    better to use extra unit $$ for whole house dehumidifier.
    IMO...its just crazy. this is what happens when not holding people accountable.
    The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    The Hot South
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    1,204
    Quote Originally Posted by mark beiser View Post
    Texas is a "home rule" state, so while the statewide codes in Texas are up to date with the current codes, each local AHJ is free to adopt, or not adopt, whatever codes they want, and all code enforcement is local, with no state oversight.
    Even in municipalities that have "strict" code enforcement, it is very spotty.

    In theory, all HVAC contractors are required to comply with the statewide codes as a condition of our licensing, or we can face administrative penalties from the state, but it just doesn't happen, because there has to be a complaint filed by a consumer, or local AHJ, before the state becomes involved.
    To add to that, the OP is probably in RURAL Texas in an unincorporated town......There is no building or fire codes or enforcement.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
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    5,990
    Quote Originally Posted by mark beiser View Post
    Texas is a "home rule" state, so while the statewide codes in Texas are up to date with the current codes, each local AHJ is free to adopt, or not adopt, whatever codes they want, and all code enforcement is local, with no state oversight.
    Even in municipalities that have "strict" code enforcement, it is very spotty.

    In theory, all HVAC contractors are required to comply with the statewide codes as a condition of our licensing, or we can face administrative penalties from the state, but it just doesn't happen, because there has to be a complaint filed by a consumer, or local AHJ, before the state becomes involved.
    Mark,

    I guess I posed a VERY STUPID QUESTION, it does involve Government.
    oooooooooooooooooo 0000000000
    L.O.L.

    Dan
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,914
    Quote Originally Posted by energy_rater_La View Post
    that 3 tons won't cool when they have 100 people over on 4th of july,
    Yeah, I always love that "We like to entertain a lot" excuse for wanting a bigger system than their already oversized system.

    So to make sure they have enough cooling for the maybe 2 or 3 times a year they have 20+ people over, they want a system that will cost more to run, and be less comfortable, the other 99.99% of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by R123 View Post
    To add to that, the OP is probably in RURAL Texas in an unincorporated town......There is no building or fire codes or enforcement.
    Well, technically the installing contractor is still required to be licensed, and follow the state wide codes as a condition of said licensing, but it is the most tenuous of technicalities.
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Anderson, South Carolina, United States
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    5,659
    Quote Originally Posted by mark beiser View Post
    Yeah, I always love that "We like to entertain a lot" excuse for wanting a bigger system than their already oversized system.

    So to make sure they have enough cooling for the maybe 2 or 3 times a year they have 20+ people over, they want a system that will cost more to run, and be less comfortable, the other 99.99% of the time.



    Well, technically the installing contractor is still required to be licensed, and follow the state wide codes as a condition of said licensing, but it is the most tenuous of technicalities.
    The problem with this is, especially in rural areas, there is very little enforcement of code except on new construction. At least that's how it is in my area. We are not required to present a load calc for a permit, the city just wants their cut. Even on new construction the ahj doesn't seem to even know what the code requirements are in my area. One guy says one thing and another says something entirely different.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    The Hot South
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    1,204
    Quote Originally Posted by mark beiser View Post
    Well, technically the installing contractor is still required to be licensed, and follow the state wide codes as a condition of said licensing, but it is the most tenuous of technicalities.
    I understand that and I agree. But in Rural Texas in unincorporated towns, there are no jurisdictions to apply for a building permit from. No permits, no inspections. In most incorporated cities, even the small ones, they have a building inspection dept. and follow the Uniform Mechanical Code with amendments for that city. In that case, you have to submit a manual J.

  8. #21
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    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
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    5,990
    Quote Originally Posted by jtrammel View Post
    Even on new construction the ahj doesn't seem to even know what the code requirements are in my area. One guy says one thing and another says something entirely different.
    _ _ _ _ _ _ A HORRIBLE JERK _ _ _
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  9. #22
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    south louisiana
    Posts
    2,991
    hmmmm in my one traffic light town, permits are per parish (county).
    while you can't get a permit in this little town..you have to go
    to the bigger town to get the permit..same parish/county.

    our code inspectors were indpenedents for 2 years, while code council
    trained their guys to enforce the newer codes in areas where
    code had never been enforced.
    that we even get code inspections is a whole new realm to
    a lot of the state.
    sure put a of builder/tradespeoples in the hot seat once
    inspections became statewide.

    good thing to me..I've always been a better than code
    advocate.

    one of the first things I was taught in the code meetings is
    that codes are dependent upon the interpertation of the code
    enforcement officers.

    the whole making the code inspectors the bad guy
    is just cya for folks who don't want to/can't do better
    than the legal minimum. code is only for minimum
    we can do so much better than that, with little
    effort.
    The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato

  10. #23
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    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtrammel View Post
    the city just wants their cut
    That is the meat of the problem there.

    I have a friend who was a plumbing, electrical, and mechanical inspector for one of the cities in our area.
    The permit fee charged by the city is 2% of the job cost.
    His average day included 18 inspections, and they all had to be completed before 5pm, because overtime was not allowed.
    He did his best to make sure there wasn't anything obvious that was a danger in the time he was given, but he didn't have enough time allotted per inspection to be thorough, so most violations never got written up.
    It became pretty obvious to him that his primary job function was to be a visible justification for the 2% cut of the job the city was skimming off the top.

    Years ago, when I was doing RNC installation, I was installing the ductwork in a new house in a neighborhood that had a job board mounted at the curb on a pole in front of each house, with the permits for each house under a plastic cover.
    I watched a city inspector drive from house to house, reach through his truck window, lift the plastic cover, and sign off on all of the permits, for every house on the block.
    He was signing off on mechanical, plumbing, electrical, and framing inspections on houses that were not even fully framed yet!
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Anderson, South Carolina, United States
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    5,659
    Quote Originally Posted by mark beiser View Post
    Years ago, when I was doing RNC installation, I was installing the ductwork in a new house in a neighborhood that had a job board mounted at the curb on a pole in front of each house, with the permits for each house under a plastic cover.
    I watched a city inspector drive from house to house, reach through his truck window, lift the plastic cover, and sign off on all of the permits, for every house on the block.
    He was signing off on mechanical, plumbing, electrical, and framing inspections on houses that were not even fully framed yet!
    That's about how the inspection goes around here. I always do better than minimum code but I know of others that cut corners and never get called on it. We do mainly changeout/retrofits and the inspector either doesn't even look in the attic/crawl or crouches down and says yep looks good, then checks gas line pressure test if applicable and makes sure there's a disconnect on the od unit then signs off on the permit.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark beiser View Post
    That is the meat of the problem there.

    I have a friend who was a plumbing, electrical, and mechanical inspector for one of the cities in our area.
    The permit fee charged by the city is 2% of the job cost.

    His average day included 18 inspections, and they all had to be completed before 5pm, because overtime was not allowed.

    I watched a city inspector drive from house to house, reach through his truck window,
    lift the plastic cover, and sign off on all of the permits, for every house on the block.

    He was signing off on mechanical, plumbing, electrical, and framing inspections
    on houses that were not even fully framed yet!
    Is TEXAS still part of the U.S.?

    How many other states have TX as their building code model?

    Oh yea, another very Stupid question, .. deals with government.?!!!
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Round Rock
    Posts
    3,405
    Austin is the only city that I work in that requires manual J. And only on new construction. They really don't care what is says as long as the blast and cfm test they perform when house is completed matches manual j. You could put a 5 ton on a 200 sq. ft. room and they wouldn't give a rats butt as long as paperwork matched.
    I like DIY'ers. They pay better to fix.

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