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  1. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermophysics View Post
    You still don't get it.

    When someone says "Yeah, well, I have a right to my own opinion" they are making a wholly irrelevant statement.

    Imagine you and a friend walk back into the kitchen to find I have arrived and am seated eating the toast you had put on just before leaving for a second. You say to me "Buddy, that's our toast". Your friend agrees with you saying "Hey dude, you've taken our toast". Then I reply to you both "Hey gents, both of you are talking about toast - did you know toast is made from bread?".

    Sure toast is made from bread - so what? What has that got to do with the fact that I have taken your toast?

    So why would someone want to remind you that they have a right to EXPRESS their opinions? Surely they were just expressing an opinion a moment ago and did so with the assumption you understood all that already?

    The reason why people appeal to the right is because you have shown them something inconsistent with their beliefs - something that questions their beliefs.

    Usually what has happened is that they started of expressing those beliefs with a very obvious degree of personal attachment - like they wanted to force the belief to be true - and now they want to save face under the light of counter evidence.

    They want to claim a right to have their beliefs be considered as true as any other - they are no longer interested in the truth - they are only interested in saving face.

    The trick is to do what the ancient Greek sceptics did - don't turn any of your beliefs into a dogma in the first place. It's okay to have firmly held beliefs but never assume any are indefeasible. The Vatican didn't just firmly believe the sun orbits the earth - they thought that belief was indefeasible and even believed they had a divine right to such beliefs.

    The best direction we could go in is actually to deny any such right altogether - instead people should be ensured the right to challenge other beliefs and defend their own - that's about all that really makes sense.

    The people should never have been denied the right to challenge the Vatican's belief that the sun orbits the earth but at the same time the Vatican should still have the right to defend it - this is the best form of tolerance - fighting beliefs only with counter beliefs - with philosophic debate.

    The better practice we all get at challenging and defending beliefs the better our societies tend to become all around.

    This is why the media are so important in our Western Democracies.

    This is another reason why we should be challenging the beliefs of the religious all the time - especially Islam...

    "Paradox of Success: the more successful a policy is in warding off some unwanted condition the less necessary it will be thought to maintain it. If a threat is successfully suppressed, people naturally wonder why we should any longer bother with it." (James Piereson, "On the Paradox of Success." Real Clear Politics, Sep. 11, 2006)
    Perhaps you do not get what was going on in the kitchen...

    The 'toast thief' is diverting the conversation away from their guilt... to avoid taking responsibility for a choice they consciously made... a basic tactic of a less than honest person.
    Opinion has nothing to do with it... the toast thief was caught in their crime... and needs to fess up to their wrong choice.

    Now if we get all caught up in opinions... we loose track of the fact someone has usurped their rights and the rights of others... and needs to have this pointed out (and if necessary punishment for their choice of action). IMO nothing else in that example is worthy of note.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  2. #106
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    Emergency Correction!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Quote from 'hurtinhvac':
    “The problem then is that if they do have such a right then we have a duty to ensure that they have true opinions which means the the debate should continue - not stop - and continue until such time as their right has been fulfilled and the prior violation of that right - them holding a false opinion - is remedied by way of the continued debate.”
    (end)

    IMO the problem arises when we are asked 'who' makes the decision as to what is a false opinion and what is a true opinion?
    If there is a 'power' who makes the final judgement.... how do you keep graft and politics and ultimately tyranny out of that decision-making process? (People being as they are... every country starts out with grand intentions... and ends up a political mess).

    OTOH: When a society is free by choice... a Darwinian style of natural selection seems to keep the standards high... until everyone becomes lazy. Would that be better, or worse?

    Then we have countries where a specific religion and the govt are blended (politically intertwined for power). Result always seems to be fear mongering by a few 'elite' religious leaders... while the masses are held in tight control (and the elites live like kings--literally). Is this a good system?

    Or we could have a nomadic arrangement where there is no rule of law... everyone does as they please... survival of the fittest and best war-lord wins... how about that system?

    Maybe our US Constitution and Bill of rights is not such a bad idea after all... just one problem: Folks have a right to think as they choose (whoops, there are those pesky opinions again)... as long as that thought process does not take away the same right from anyone else.
    Gee, that sounds like a system that just might work... until the polecats screw it up... as they screw up EVERY country in the history of mankind.
    While I am normally extremely cautious when correcting those here whom I consider senior techs - and can't think of a single instance so far where I felt I had to do so; I can assure you in this case the bolded did not come from me!!!

    In fact, I took rather sharp exception to it.

  3. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbar View Post
    Yes and there is only one answer "taxes", no govt can run without money, so if you look at most countries where the masses pay very little in tax, they have very little power.

    you want to change a govt, withhold your labour and taxes. Very quick results at a local level.
    Totally agree!

    Problem is too many folks getting a cut of the pie... getting folks to not take a slice of the pie is harder than getting them to want freedom...

    OTOH: If a recession lasts long enough... folks will get used to less 'dole'; govt will either have to back off or go totally broke... thus ending their gravy train of power... there is only sooo far deficit spending can go in a recession without dire results.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  4. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurtinhvac View Post
    While I am normally extremely cautious when correcting those here whom I consider senior techs - and can't think of a single instance so far where I felt I had to do so; I can assure you in this case the bolded did not come from me!!!

    In fact, I took rather sharp exception to it.
    THX for the clarification. I copied and pasted it from a quote I read in a post a few pages back...

    THX for calling me a SR tech... I rarely am treated that well...

    Edit: Thought I would go back and look... See post #88... it appears you did post that... unless the forum software has screwed up... which DOES happen.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  5. #109
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    THX for the clarification. I copied and pasted it from a quote I read in a post a few pages back...

    THX for calling me a SR tech... I rarely am treated that well...

    Edit: Thought I would go back and look... See post #88... it appears you did post that... unless the forum software has screwed up... which DOES happen



    You're welcome on all counts.

    It was indeed part of my post, however the bolded was a direct quote from the OP. I bolded it as I thought it was a most telling and attention worthy piece of the entire OP.

    I just didn't use the site features to bold and quote as you are used to...

  6. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurtinhvac View Post
    THX for the clarification. I copied and pasted it from a quote I read in a post a few pages back...

    THX for calling me a SR tech... I rarely am treated that well...

    Edit: Thought I would go back and look... See post #88... it appears you did post that... unless the forum software has screwed up... which DOES happen



    You're welcome on all counts.

    It was indeed part of my post, however the bolded was a direct quote from the OP. I bolded it as I thought it was a most telling and attention worthy piece of the entire OP.

    I just didn't use the site features to bold and quote as you are used to...

    THX for the explanation... sometimes when one reads they get a simplistic view.

    And since this reader did not read the OP (poster or post), I confess I was not equipped to discern.

    My apologies for mis-appropriating the quote.

    Now lets hope our respective weeks go better than this thread... <grin>
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  7. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    THX for the explanation... sometimes when one reads they get a simplistic view.

    And since this reader did not read the OP (poster or post), I confess I was not equipped to discern.

    My apologies for mis-appropriating the quote.

    Now lets hope our respective weeks go better than this thread... <grin>
    Dear God I would hope so. We have 110 opinions on here as to whether or not we have a right to an opinion. I don't know about everybody else. but I am about worn out with this philosophical cr@p. I hate starting out on a Monday morning with philosophical nuttiness in my head. I typically have enough to deal with already. The phone or alarm clock sounds like a Tyrannosaurus-Rex screaming.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "Who ARE you people? And WHAT are you doing in my SWAMP!?" Shrek

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

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  8. #112
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    double post.

    That is what we say when our video links are bad. You can edit your post. Or alter your post. Or you can just say "DOUBLE POST" and try to delete it before anyone notices. Johnny Cash, I hardly expected any controversial material.
    Last edited by Tool-Slinger; 04-29-2013 at 12:13 AM. Reason: some sort of excuse or another

  9. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurtinhvac View Post
    Oh...I get it alright.

    Quibble though you may with the phrase "I have a right to my opinion;" and question it's relevancy all you want - it's meaning and general intent is quite clear. It means who the hell do you think you are to determine the validity of my opinions and beliefs?
    A logician is concerned with validity - validity concerns syntax.

    If (P) then (Q). (Q), ergo (P)

    The above logical form, the syntax, is an invalid logical form - no matter what semantic components are inserted into the propositional place holders P and Q.

    Take P as: It is raining
    Take Q as: The roads are wet

    If (it is raining) then (the roads are wet). (The roads are wet), ergo (It is raining)

    You can see that since "raining this very minute" is not the only way roads could become, or be, wet - then, just because the roads are wet, it does not mean it necessarily is raining right now - hence the argument or belief is invalid.

    So who decides the validity of beliefs? Logicians do.

    But we are talking only the semantics here. Propositions that is - statements that are either true or false.

    Now, back to your main objection:

    Imagine you claimed the kitchen light works and I claimed the kitchen light is blown. Because both beliefs cannot be true at the same time and in the same sense it necessarily is true that one of us will be experiencing a rights violation - according to your definition of the right to hold an opinion. One of us has a false belief and so to determine who's right to hold only true beliefs is being violated the debate or investigation must go on - not cease.

    So someone tells me that Mohamed flew to Jerusalem on the back of a donkey. I say "bollocks - what a load of crock!" and that person replies "You must respect my beliefs". Again I say bollocks - what is the difference between suggesting I respect someone's beliefs and I must cease questioning those beliefs because they have a right to hold them?

    Instead we say, in a free society, we have the right to express and defend our beliefs and we have the right to challenge and disagree with the beliefs of others.

  10. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    Dear God I would hope so. We have 110 opinions on here as to whether or not we have a right to an opinion. I don't know about everybody else. but I am about worn out with this philosophical cr@p. I hate starting out on a Monday morning with philosophical nuttiness in my head. I typically have enough to deal with already. The phone or alarm clock sounds like a Tyrannosaurus-Rex screaming.
    Ya know what is coming next...

    Drum roll...

    Sigh...

    Shudder...

    Icon of 'oh _____' look on face...

















    Opinions are like *ss h*les.... everyone has one... and they are ALL full of POO...

    Maybe the philosopher actually realized this (now that would be a stretch...) and was trying to cover his/her tracks so as to keep their govt contract for research.

    Nuff said... it is Monday morning, busy season is drawing closer and closer... time to get something productive done.

    You guys and gals go take your opinions of how to do HVAC work and/or run an HVAC business and go out there and be productive....

    GA wishes everyone (yes even the libs) to have a GREAT day!
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  11. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermophysics View Post
    what is the difference between suggesting I respect someone's beliefs and I must cease questioning those beliefs because they have a right to hold them?
    Most men see their wives as a nice person. If you see her as a b!tch, do you have a right to argue the point with him?

  12. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    Most men see their wives as a nice person. If you see her as a b!tch, do you have a right to argue the point with him?
    Depends if you want invited for dinner... Chances are he sees it too, but wants to feel safe when he closes his eyes at night!
    Don't worry zombies are looking for brains, you're safe...

  13. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    THX for the explanation... sometimes when one reads they get a simplistic view.

    And since this reader did not read the OP (poster or post), I confess I was not equipped to discern.

    My apologies for mis-appropriating the quote.

    Now lets hope our respective weeks go better than this thread... <grin>
    Nah don't worry about it...no harm, no foul.

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