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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Central Coast, California
    Posts
    26

    W7751E W7751F Compatibility (CARE)

    I have been fighting a VAV replacement problem on and off for over a year now. Obviously the particular VAV is not in a critical location at our plant but the implications are that if I do suffer a critical failure I am in no position to respond. We had a VAV box controller fail in its ability to communicate with its remote temperature sensor. The VAV in question is a W7751E1007 serial number 010017C4FE00 and it was being handled with CARE/Excel10 version 1.5.2b software. I replaced the unit with a W7751F 2003 serial number 041ABCFA0100. Using CARE on our Laptop via a SLTA adapter I tried to commission the new VAV Box controller as the one just removed. I received an error message (Controller already in use). After a great deal of troubleshooting and trial and error I have deduced that the Controller in question is the new one just installed. I can commission it as a E-Link Zone Manager for some reason with out getting a controller already in use error but I cannot commission it as a VAV. I now know that I cannot commission it as any VAV, not just the position of interest. I experimented with my other VAVs and found that all of them that start with serial number 01 can be moved around and commissioned pretty much at will. The two controllers I have that serial number starts in 04 cannot be used in my configuration.

    I purchased a copy of e-vision a while back to try and use it to commission these devices but our system has not been set up with an e-vision project and I haven’t gotten anywhere down that road.

    Has anyone seen this before? Is there a paddle out there, for me?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Central Coast, California
    Posts
    26

    Confused Update to this journey.

    While waiting to see if there would be any takers for this problem, I decided to build an e-vision project that looked like the CARE VAV installation. I found that I could assign an ID to the 2003 series VAVs and commission them in e-vision. I naively hoped that once commisioned in e-vision I could see them with CARE. Still not recognized. Much to my dismay, as I was wandering around the E-Bus I found that I couldn't commision any of the W7751E1007 series VAV Controls. The commission effort failed with a 'Major Version' fault. So I could look at two devices with e-vision and 22 devices in CARE. Only the CARE devices are reporting to the operators console (XBS) but that doesn't surprise me right now. It is looking pretty conclusive that this is a compatibility issue rather than operator error. I have a Honeywell Rep checking into it and another contractor suggesting adding another Zone Manager for the new VAVs.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    566
    Post your questions on this in the controls section and im sure it will get answered.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Central Coast, California
    Posts
    26

    Shoulda woulda coulda

    Of course, you are right, bobby. In my haste to get this plea for help out there I didn't fully check out the bbs and find the optimum category. I have tried to contact the administrator to try and move this to controls. I don't want to start a new string over there in controls that is a copy of this one and thus invoke the wrath of the moderators.

    Thanks for pointing out the error of my ways.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    U.S.A.
    Posts
    209
    This is kind of a messy situation

    You can't mix a 1000-series VAVs with 2000-series VAVs (VAV2) with the same LON bus or programming.

    For 1000-series, CARE (2.01 or below) is used to configure and LiveCARE is used to commission and test. A 1000-series ZoneManager would also used in this system to convert the LON points to C-Bus for the XBS.

    For 2000-series, E-Vision is used to configure, commission and test the VAVs. A 2000-series ZoneManager would also be in the mix for the XBS.

    Your SLTA is more than likely not compatible with the new VAV2 units because it's probably older, and not FT-10. This goes back to the mid 1990's when different vendors did not have to make their LON equipment compatible with LON standards.

    Anyway, if you could get your hands on an FT-10 SLTA , then you could configure your new VAV2s in E-Vision and commission them as a new project. They would not be able to communicate with the old ZoneManager (or XBS), but the VAVs would be functional. I would not leave them on the same bus if you were to do this.

    Your best option is to find some 1000-series VAV units with the same part number, maybe on eBay or something. That way you could just go to LiveCARE and commission them and all would be like it was originally.

    Did you try going through the installing company to see what they recommend about your situation? I also don't understand why you have E-Vision, because it is not compatible with your original system.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Central Coast, California
    Posts
    26

    Hmm I can [B]always[/B] find the messes.

    Starting with the last question first, I ordered e-vision back when I was first faced with this problem. The spare VAV that was put in the system and wouldn't talk happened to be the 2000 series unit. When I asked about comissioning it, Honeywell said that I would need e-vision. I was curious why it hadn't been a part of this installation already but went ahead and orderred a copy. As you have laready stated, it was extremely annoying trying to communicate with the old system in e-vision and finding that none of the working VAVs would talk.

    When I connected the SLTA to the new VAV2 (2000 series) I could commision it on my test bench and thought that I had found the answer to my woes. I guess that means I somehow lucked out and have at least a dash 10? It is a model 73000 SLTA /2 from Echelon Corp. with a 9508N05 manufacture code.

    I have been keeping watch on e-bay and have asked a few associates to keep an eye out for any spare 1000 series VAVs. I think that is the quickest and easiest path to my end. As a backup, I am being directed to submit an Engineering Change Request to see if I can get funding to create a '2000 Series ebus' I have a spare zone manager but ALAS it is a 1000 series unit.

    Thanks for your confirmation of what I had finally suspected. It is unusual for an anomally to keep me baffled so long.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    323
    Long term, the Series 1000 controllers will require second-hand sources like E-Bay for you to support them. You are on the right track with a newer Zone Manager and a separate FT-10 E-bus for the Series 2000 controllers.
    You might also consider other alternatives for a future architecture like converting the Series 1000 bus (TP-78?) into FT-10 with a router, and using Tridium or other network panel.
    How large is the C-bus that the Series 1000 Zone Manager is part of? Converting the whole bus to Lon is a possibility.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    U.S.A.
    Posts
    209

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by tlp261 View Post
    How large is the C-bus that the Series 1000 Zone Manager is part of? Converting the whole bus to Lon is a possibility.
    That's a great suggestion. I guess it all depends on how many devices are on his C-Bus to see if it's cost effective or not.

    The newer SymmetrE beats XBS (feature-wise) for C-Bus in my opinion, but for straight LON, I really like the Tridium devices.

    The whole CARE/LiveCARE situation for the 1000-series VAVs is such a pain. Using a JACE with VAV2s is so much simpler

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Central Coast, California
    Posts
    26

    Lightbulb C-Bus/E-Bus Configuration

    This facility has two C-Busses ( or is that Busi? ). Bus 1 is serving 11 XL100 controllers and 1 Zone Manager. Bus 2 is serving 17 XL100 DDC Controllers and no Zone Manager. The one Zone Manager we do have is servicing 21 XL10 controllers (well only 20 now) and I am left with two controllers that are 2000 series. I have not been lucky enough to be able to attend any formal training and the controls engineer that retired from here had only a day to show me the configuration here. I have been plodding my way through a mountain of manuals and training guides with little chance to practise in the field. I am sure you are well aware how sympathetic occupants can be when you ask for permission to work on the HVAC controls system for there facility to get valuable training time in. Never on their dime.
    Oops, sorry about the ranting.
    I am stuck behind a procurement nightmare with Federal Acquisitions Regulations to deal with. Going to E-Bay is not that easy of a proposition. I do not believe that it has actually be successfully attempted here. Even then, I haven't seen any listings lately for 1000 series hardware. I am leaning toward leaving bus-1 alone and adding the new zone manager to bus-2. No matter what I have to pull new wires to the two newer VAVs. Naturally, they are not adjacent in the E-Bus architecture. I need to try and milk about 5-years out of this configuration and am weighing the pro's and con's of moving the 2000 series XL10's as needed or bite someones bullet and split the existing Ebus somewhere in half, saving the old 1000 series and putting in more 2000s.
    I am a little gun shy of pursuing other software solutions. A Honeywell rep has said that they are about to release a new communication software suite based on Open GL architecture. It is supposed to be backward compatible... ?
    Thanks for your help and I expect to need reall info from the REAL WORLD once a path has been selected.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    3

    controllers are available

    Honeywell has a rebuild program for these old controllers. I installed a few late in 2006. The ones you get will not be new but will work.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    323
    Converting to all Lon would be prohibitive since there is no Lon version of the XL100. There is a C-bus driver for Tridium R2 which you could talk to a Honeywell branch or contractor about. At this point in the life cycle of R2 though, that might not be a good alternative either.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Central Coast, California
    Posts
    26

    Tridium?

    There is just something about that name that is too similar to Tritium and it brings me back to my old Navy days.

    I was able to get a W7750A 2003 orderred for me and will try a little bench test. But, I have to admit that STWhitey has a very tempting offer. Bury this somewhere, get some rebuilt spares and take some time to find and budget for a big changeout project.

    I have to admit that I am rather miffed that Honeywell would put out a product that wasn't backward compatible.

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