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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Eastern Washington
    Posts
    57

    HHO Fireplace won't stay lit....

    Yes, I have an HHO (oxy-hydrogen) 3-sided fireplace. Just finally converted it this week. I need some suggestions on back-flash suppression.

    Here are the specs:

    HNG Pier-42,
    27-40Kbtu input

    I'm using HHO (oxy-hydrogen) gas 1/2" line in with a water bubbler as a flash suppressor.


    HHO Generator specs:

    12vdc input modulating from 10-30amps

    I'm getting about 1 liter of HHO gas in 3minutes.

    My first attempt, ran fine without a water bubbler in between the generator and the combustion chamber but when I turned off the gas, the generator tended to disassemble itself into tiny pieces with a large shot-gun sized BOOM spreading water everywhere.

    With the bubbler, I am not having that problem, but I am not getting a steady flame now.

    Has anyone here worked with oxy-hydrogen or hydrogen electrolysis?

    Just curious

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bartlett, IL
    Posts
    6,619
    Ummmmmmm....NOPE.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Eastern Washington
    Posts
    57

    Smile Plates and regulator do the trick!

    I went back to the drawing board and saw two things I overlooked. I changed the surface area of my electrolysis plates and changed my regulator.......



    much much better.

    This is awesome! A water buring fireplace!! I think the best thing is the efficiency and no need for venting. Next step is to apply for a patent. I don't think Heat-n-glo would be too happy about me altering their products for profit lol.

    I've been working on this for quite a while now. It's not too often that an HVAC guy gets to work on something like this.... a Steve Jobs-Bill Gates kind of moment.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Victoria,Tx
    Posts
    6,680

    Hydrogen

    Does not have very much BTU value. The reason it is so popular is it's explosive range. Unlike methane or propane.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Eastern Washington
    Posts
    57
    Quote Originally Posted by oroy54 View Post
    Does not have very much BTU value. The reason it is so popular is it's explosive range. Unlike methane or propane.
    That is very interesting oroy54. Heat-N-Glo's Aquion claims 31Kbtu @ 1/2gal H2o/hr.

    That is not to mention that there is no venting of heat or gases to the outdoors creating a 100% efficiency rating. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here, just put some new tread on em.

    I realize that pure hydrogen has only 94btu/lb output, but HHO gas is not pure hydrogen and thus in its monotomic state as 2 seperate hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom, it achieves a much higher rate.

    HHo gas is currently widely used in welding, brazing and cutting and many are using in gasoline engines, although I personally have not tried or witnessed such an application.

    I am convinced that with the proper regulation of pressure, filtered grey water from residential uses could be used to efficiently heat a home through a furnace application or even ambiance and heat through a ventless fireplace application.

    Thanks for the comment.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Erie Pa
    Posts
    23
    Thats really interesting what did you use for a generator and the bubbler if you dont mind me asking

    (Stupid Question)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,915
    It takes more energy to crack the water into HHO gas than you get from burning the gas.
    Its cool and all, but not very efficient.

    As for the "water powered" HHO burning cars. Its funny how they never show the massive load of batteries stuffed into the car, or talk about how long it takes or how much energy is used to charge the batteries.
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Eastern Washington
    Posts
    57
    No problem JL,

    The generator is made of a section of ABS pipe machine cut with a plate of 1/2" plexi-glass for top and bottom made air-tight by a gasket and four 1/4" all-thread bolts with washers and nuts. A series of SS plates are placed inside connected in series +,-,+,-. The plates are seperated by plastic 1/8" washers. Power is provided by 12V dc (10-30 amps).

    The gas produced by this process is HHO or Hydrogen, Hydrogen, Oxygen (in its monotomic state- meaning not bonded to other atoms) discovered by Yule Brown, a Bulgarian Physicist.

    1 liter of water produces about 1860 liters of HHO or Brown's gas which is in the most efficient state for combustion.

    Do NOT try to light this gas directly out of the generator.... you will lose your generator!

    When the power supply is turned on, the current flows between the negative and positive plates causing the bond between the hydrogen and oxygen to be broken. The free atoms then rise to the surface and flow to a bubbler--another cylinder full of water-- where the gas is released from the bottom, rising to the top and continuing through the regulator to the valve and finally to the combustion point.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Eastern Washington
    Posts
    57

    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by mark beiser View Post
    It takes more energy to crack the water into HHO gas than you get from burning the gas.
    Its cool and all, but not very efficient.

    As for the "water powered" HHO burning cars. Its funny how they never show the massive load of batteries stuffed into the car, or talk about how long it takes or how much energy is used to charge the batteries.
    Mark,


    How did you come up with that? I am producing about 20 liters of gas per hour off of 1 12v car battery which is charging from a 110v outlet.

    If what you say is true, you had better hurry up and tell Heat-N-Glo (Hearth and Home Technologies) so they don't waste any more time on their Aquion fireplaces.

    The Aquion is a 31kbtu fireplace that burns water only fuel.

    You can check it out on their website: http://www.heat-n-glo.com/products/f...aqueonhome.asp

    Don't take my word for it by any means! I'm trying to remember who it was..... mmmm I ah... oh ya... the Wright Brothers! The Wright brothers were told they were wasting their time, that the laws of physics made human flight impossible.... and then the most amazing thing happened, but I don't remember what it was off the top of my head.

    I think it was the crazy inventor that was laughed at when he tried to rally investment into his "crazy" electricity system who you can thank for helping you locate the toilet in the middle of the night by the flick of a switch.

    I've read hundreds of hours of calculations and theories on whether or not this can actually be done and whether or not you get more energy out of it than you put into it.....

    Let me ask you this... what happens to water in a lake, stream, pond, etc when the energy of the sun hits it's surface? It separates into hydrogen and oxygen right! and the hydrogen is used for what? It's used by plants and animals. Some of the oxygen is consumed by living things and the rest rises to the atmosphere where it recombines (condenses) with additional hydrogen atoms creating water molecules which collect together until they become heavy and fall as rain, snow, hail etc. It's been happening for millions of years and will continue for millions more. It's a very simple process, but very efficient and very effective. We are only now beginning to be able to artificially reproduce this process efficiently.

    Here is another valuable link:

    http://www.eagle-research.com


    good luck

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Eastern Washington
    Posts
    57
    Hydrogen created through electrolysis contains approx 52,000btu's/lb as opposed to gasoline which has about 20,000 btu's/lb

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,915
    I have actually looked into HHO quite a bit, and am interested to see where people go with it. The problem is that is suffers from the same problem hydrogen fuel does. It takes more energy to produce the fuel than you get from using the fuel.
    Until that problem is overcome, its usefulness will be limited

    Quote Originally Posted by FurnacePro View Post
    How did you come up with that? I am producing about 20 liters of gas per hour off of 1 12v car battery which is charging from a 110v outlet.
    You are getting fewer BTUH of heat from burning that 20 liters of HHO gas than you would by running a heating element with the same amount of electricity it is taking you to crack the water into HHO gas.

    Please don't mistake my comments as being negative about the technology. I personally find it to be very cool. I'm sure your project has been both entertaining and educational. You just have to understand that it is not an efficient way to heat, it certainly is more interesting than a heating element, and a great conversation piece though.

    If what you say is true, you had better hurry up and tell Heat-N-Glo (Hearth and Home Technologies) so they don't waste any more time on their Aquion fireplaces.

    The Aquion is a 31kbtu fireplace that burns water only fuel.
    Ok, the thing you have to understand is that the water is not the fuel, the HHO gas is the fuel. To crack the water into HHO gas, a large amount of electricity is required.
    Check out what I have circled on this add from Heat&Glo's site.


    Note that you need a 60A 220v electrical circuit to run this 31k btuh fireplace. Thats the same sized electrical circuit that would normally be used for a 10 kw electric heat package, and the 10 kw heat package would give you more heat.
    I personally think that fireplace is a neat product, but please don't mistake it for an efficient source of heat.

    I've read hundreds of hours of calculations and theories on whether or not this can actually be done and whether or not you get more energy out of it than you put into it.....
    <snip>
    Here is another valuable link:

    http://www.eagle-research.com
    If you are going to post a link to the site, at least read the site.

    http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/myth/homuse.html

    The simple fact is that at this point in time, you cannot get more energy out of it, or even the same amount of energy, as you put in.
    Currently you get less energy out of it than you put in 100&#37; of the time.

    The great thing is that there are very many people in many different fields doing tons of work and research on solving that problem.
    If and when they do solve it, I'll be right there in line to buy a HHO or hydrogen powered car, furnace, whatever.
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,915
    Gah, I wanted to find more on the electrical specs of the Aqueon fireplace to see if that 60A electrical supply it needs is the actual current draw or if it was the required breaker size, but it turns out it is not a product available for sale. Looks like it is just a design exercise.

    http://www.heat-n-glo.com/products/f...onPurchase.asp
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Eastern Washington
    Posts
    57
    Yes Mark,

    They brought it to the hearth and home show a few years ago, but couldn't get it to light so promptly they removed it the first day.

    I didnt take your comments personally, I was just being my usual protagonist self.

    It's intersting to me that Heat-n-glo has chosen to seperate the hydrogen and oxygen in their electrolysis process and re-introduce the oxygen into the flame for "color" as they put it. I have built several generators on this theory and have found that while the flame is much easier to produce, it takes much much more power to produce the same amount of hydrogen for combustion.

    HHO gas is highly explosive, and thus has to be controlled carefully. HHO combustion can reach temperatures of 15k degrees. A pure hydrogen flame reaches 3k degrees. I don't know the exact temperature that a heating element reaches over time, but I think the amount of heat available from the HHO flame if properly harnessed and released over time could net a greater heat output say through a ceramic heat exchanger than effectively produced by a 10kw heatstrip. I could be very wrong, but this is where I'm going with it. If the power for electrolysis is provided by solar or wind source, and the output is harnessed, the results might be an efficient heat source.

    In the area of a coke bottle cap of HHo gas, I have effively shot a 3/8" brass connector 20+ feet. I don't know the exact energy required to move an object of that weight and size that far as quickly as it moved, but I imagine that there was quite a bit of energy release involved. I realize that my flame is still very inefficient at this point, but it is my flame and I'm kind of attached to it. LOL.

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