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  1. #27
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    Feb 2010
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    In a boiler room
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    Quote Originally Posted by sto2299001 View Post
    In your experience, if there is crack in the heat-exchanger and drawing in supply air, would you have a higher reading of CO on your meter?
    A crack can cause the CO reading to either rise, fall or stay the same. Just because the CO is stable does not mean there are no cracks in the HX.

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Maryville, Tennessee
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    419
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckcrj View Post
    A crack can cause the CO reading to either rise, fall or stay the same. Just because the CO is stable does not mean there are no cracks in the HX.
    What readings on the CA would indicate a cracked heat exchanger? Of course my question is assuming that a significant crack can always be found with a CA if one knows how to interpret the readings. Is that a correct assumptions?
    -Marty

  3. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by m singer View Post
    What readings on the CA would indicate a cracked heat exchanger? Of course my question is assuming that a significant crack can always be found with a CA if one knows how to interpret the readings. Is that a correct assumptions?
    If by significant crack you mean one that is definitely leaking, you would see the O2 rise when the blower starts.

  4. #30
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    Apr 2003
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    Maryville, Tennessee
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckcrj View Post
    If by significant crack you mean one that is definitely leaking, you would see the O2 rise when the blower starts.
    Could anything other then a crack cause O2 to rise, or would that be a plosive indication of a leaking crack?
    -Marty

  5. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by m singer View Post
    Could anything other then a crack cause O2 to rise, or would that be a plosive indication of a leaking crack?
    Other things could also cause o2 to change when the blower starts. Combustion analysis in and of itself, cannot pass or fail a heat exchanger.

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
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    S.E. Pa
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    6,205
    Starting to sound like you want us to teach you a CO and Combustion Analysis course over this forum. Can't and ain't happening. You need to spend the money and get certified. Yes, there are books and online materials including some videos but nothing beats taking the course. Check with NCI for dates.

    You cannot offer what you ask. Any CO reading--I mean ANY reading is just a snapshot in time. Conditions can change before you leave the premises so offer a curbside warranty on your findings. Even a Worst Case Depressurization Test is controversial because it cannot possibly cover all the parameters of what could make a "worst" case.

    A spot reading of 100ppm is virtually meaningless without followup readings. For instance, is it stable, rising or falling? If you wait to test at "steady state" you miss that critical initial firing. Let's say you give it 5 min. then read 100ppm in the vent connector. Great. You pack your bags, tell the client the good news and leave as the CO keeps rising higher and higher. Something happens later that night to cause CO spillage and your phone rings with a call you never want.


    The concept of safety is a unicorn. It does not exist. It is a dream. People look for assurances in life. They think they bought the best built home in town only to have it blow away in a tornado or catch on fire from faulty wiring. Is your car safe? I'll bet it's saf-er parked in the driveway than driving on the parkway. Still, is it TOTALLY safe parked in the driveway? You sure? You aren't afraid for toddlers to play behind or under it? See what I mean?

    I can inspect an installation and conduct certain tests and tell the homeowner it appears to be operating within the mfrs. specs. at that moment in time but I cannot give them any sort of warranty or guaranty of performance or safety. If they ask in horror am I stating their appliance isn't "safe", I inform them it was tested and listed by an approved testing lab to a national standard. How it was installed (if not by me) is not completely known so I cannot vouch for it 100%. As far as if the system was the proper choice for this application, sizing, or performance parameters, I can tell them that for significantly additional fees I can conduct extensive inspection and performance testing at their option and I do recommend that process regardless (to CYA). If they refuse (in writing) then they have no recourse against me. Just understand that as the qualified professional there, it is incumbent upon you to warn them sufficiently of any hazards they need to know about.

    For instance, I was called to a house yesterday for a plumbing related issue on a personal referral by a friend at church. While in the CAZ, I spotted numerous safety issues with the water heater and furnace which triggered them getting the useless home warranty people out that evening. When Scooter the tech was asked about the suitability of the furnace and specifically the heat exchanger in lieu of all the soot, rust and metal scorching in the collector box and burners partially covered by piles of rust and scale, he said as long as the flames are not rolling out the HX is fine. The unit is 33 yrs. old. He did not write down any of his findings as I did. Who has more liability? Who was it that loaned a low level CO monitor for a few days until they could get the home warranty company to refuse to replace the unit? (me).

    A unit cannot be tagged out and locked out unless it meets the ANSI criteria for "Danger" as opposed to the alert words "warning" or "caution". Still, you must warn the client IN WRITING with a full explanation of the problem and consequences for failure to repair as you specify.

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Cleveland
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    606
    Quote Originally Posted by hearthman View Post
    Starting to sound like you want us to teach you a CO and Combustion Analysis course over this forum. Can't and ain't happening. You need to spend the money and get certified. Yes, there are books and online materials including some videos but nothing beats taking the course. Check with NCI for dates.

    You cannot offer what you ask. Any CO reading--I mean ANY reading is just a snapshot in time. Conditions can change before you leave the premises so offer a curbside warranty on your findings. Even a Worst Case Depressurization Test is controversial because it cannot possibly cover all the parameters of what could make a "worst" case.

    A spot reading of 100ppm is virtually meaningless without followup readings. For instance, is it stable, rising or falling? If you wait to test at "steady state" you miss that critical initial firing. Let's say you give it 5 min. then read 100ppm in the vent connector. Great. You pack your bags, tell the client the good news and leave as the CO keeps rising higher and higher. Something happens later that night to cause CO spillage and your phone rings with a call you never want.


    The concept of safety is a unicorn. It does not exist. It is a dream. People look for assurances in life. They think they bought the best built home in town only to have it blow away in a tornado or catch on fire from faulty wiring. Is your car safe? I'll bet it's saf-er parked in the driveway than driving on the parkway. Still, is it TOTALLY safe parked in the driveway? You sure? You aren't afraid for toddlers to play behind or under it? See what I mean?

    I can inspect an installation and conduct certain tests and tell the homeowner it appears to be operating within the mfrs. specs. at that moment in time but I cannot give them any sort of warranty or guaranty of performance or safety. If they ask in horror am I stating their appliance isn't "safe", I inform them it was tested and listed by an approved testing lab to a national standard. How it was installed (if not by me) is not completely known so I cannot vouch for it 100%. As far as if the system was the proper choice for this application, sizing, or performance parameters, I can tell them that for significantly additional fees I can conduct extensive inspection and performance testing at their option and I do recommend that process regardless (to CYA). If they refuse (in writing) then they have no recourse against me. Just understand that as the qualified professional there, it is incumbent upon you to warn them sufficiently of any hazards they need to know about.

    For instance, I was called to a house yesterday for a plumbing related issue on a personal referral by a friend at church. While in the CAZ, I spotted numerous safety issues with the water heater and furnace which triggered them getting the useless home warranty people out that evening. When Scooter the tech was asked about the suitability of the furnace and specifically the heat exchanger in lieu of all the soot, rust and metal scorching in the collector box and burners partially covered by piles of rust and scale, he said as long as the flames are not rolling out the HX is fine. The unit is 33 yrs. old. He did not write down any of his findings as I did. Who has more liability? Who was it that loaned a low level CO monitor for a few days until they could get the home warranty company to refuse to replace the unit? (me).

    A unit cannot be tagged out and locked out unless it meets the ANSI criteria for "Danger" as opposed to the alert words "warning" or "caution". Still, you must warn the client IN WRITING with a full explanation of the problem and consequences for failure to repair as you specify.
    Well said

  8. #34
    You guys should really research the equipment hes asking about before acting like your the formost authority on the subject, the SOX3 has an electric pump built in not a hand pump and it measures %O2 and flue temperature, and calculates %CO2, Excess Air, and combustion efficiency. Really that's all you need for a PM. I agree you need to know how to use it and how to correct any issues with ur readings but to buy a $1000 testo as an apprentice is unnecessary when there's a bunch of other things you'll need as well.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    Virginia
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTE View Post
    You guys should really research the equipment hes asking about before acting like your the formost authority on the subject, the SOX3 has an electric pump built in not a hand pump and it measures %O2 and flue temperature, and calculates %CO2, Excess Air, and combustion efficiency.
    Be sure to read ALL the posts before you comment.

    He did start off by asking about the SOX3, but in post #11 he switched gears, and said he wanted to buy the Carbon Monoxide Inspector Kit, and wanted comments on it.

    http://www.sensorcon.com/carbon-monoxide-detectors/

    Last time I looked, it had a hand pump.
    Instead of learning the tricks of the trade, learn the trade.

  10. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by rundawg View Post
    Be sure to read ALL the posts before you comment.

    He did start off by asking about the SOX3, but in post #11 he switched gears, and said he wanted to buy the Carbon Monoxide Inspector Kit, and wanted comments on it.

    http://www.sensorcon.com/carbon-monoxide-detectors/

    Last time I looked, it had a hand pump.

    Posts 2-7 are all telling him to "spend the money on a "real" analyser" and post 7 mentions that his FP is a hand pump and won't do CO well the sox3 has an electric pump and will do everything an apprentice needs. I'm just saing an apprentice needs proper guidence and to steer him towards a $1000 unit when he won't use half of it isn't a wise choice to spend ur dollers on when your only making probably $16-20/hr. An FP is just fine for what he's doing.

  11. #37
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    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
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    68,174
    Quote Originally Posted by TTE View Post
    Posts 2-7 are all telling him to "spend the money on a "real" analyser" and post 7 mentions that his FP is a hand pump and won't do CO well the sox3 has an electric pump and will do everything an apprentice needs. I'm just saing an apprentice needs proper guidence and to steer him towards a $1000 unit when he won't use half of it isn't a wise choice to spend ur dollers on when your only making probably $16-20/hr. An FP is just fine for what he's doing.
    I don't see where the SOX3 has a CO sensor. So it won't do CO. The ACM3 does CO but does require a pump to use it for flue gas testing.

    The Bacharach Tech 60 is a lower priced unit(600 range) and does include CO and O2 sensor.
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  12. #38
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    Jul 2007
    Location
    Virginia
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTE View Post
    I'm just saing an apprentice needs proper guidence and to steer him towards a $1000 unit when he won't use half of it isn't a wise choice to spend ur dollers on when your only making probably $16-20/hr. An FP is just fine for what he's doing.
    I would say - don't buy any of them right now, except maybe a good CO monitor to protect yourself.

    As new apprentice, his boss will no doubt tell him what he wants him testing on furnace PM's.

    Unfortunately, if his boss is one of those guys who doesn't believe in combustion analysis, it doesn't matter what he buys, because his boss won't let him go drilling holes to do testing on his own.

    He would be better off spending the money on a CO course so he can learn why he is testing, and how to correct the problem. He will also be able to see different CO analyzers in use, and then be able to make a more informed decision on which one to buy. That would also show initiative to his boss.

    We all know that having ANY CO analyzer, and just spouting out a CO number to the homeowner serves no purpose, if you don't know what those numbers are telling you.
    Instead of learning the tricks of the trade, learn the trade.

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Maryville, Tennessee
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    419
    Quote Originally Posted by hearthman View Post
    Starting to sound like you want us to teach you a CO and Combustion Analysis course over this forum. Can't and ain't happening. You need to spend the money and get certified. Yes, there are books and online materials including some videos but nothing beats taking the course. Check with NCI for dates.
    First off thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. I am not looking for anyone to teach me a CO and Combustion Analysis course over this forum. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I hope to be able to afford to take a course at NCI in the fall.

    CA is use not common in East Tennessee. I base that on the 10 years that I have worked service in East Tennessee. I have never seen one used nor have I found evidence of one having been used on any piece of equipment that I have serviced.

    Of course I aspire to be better than the other guys and do not wish to get by doing what everyone else does.
    -Marty

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