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  1. #27
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    near knoxville tenessee
    Posts
    177
    Cute little setup, im assuming the drier was the culprit since no more posts.

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    32
    HVAC_Marc

    I keep a marine tank with hard corals (SPS - agreed and knows by marine hobbyist as fussy corals that can die within a few hrs if conditions are not right) - they require water temp to be in the region of 26 Deg C. I live in the tropics where ambient temp hit 35 Deg C.
    I have similar setup but the easy way out of this is to go back to a simple system. I have given up on the "specially" built for aquarium systems as they are just too compact to be efficient. Here is what I have done

    1. 1.5 outdoor unit (standard home units) - non inverter type
    2. titanium coil
    3. A pump with flowrate calculated based on - required cycle time and tube size / coil length - (titanium coil as well and I estimated the length based on the tube size and volume of the cooling casing)
    4. A temperature controller set to cut in at 27 Deg C and cut off at 26 Deg C. I have alarms etc.
    5. Place coil and outdoor unit as close as possible and shortest route to the tank.

    My compressor cycles on/off about 15 mins interval and runs for about 4 to 5 mins.

    This installation keeps things simple - the compressor can be easily be replaced and all other items as well. If i am not confident of the unit, I just replace the outdoor unit because my lifestock is more precious and i leave the troubleshooting for another day ( I have a spare outdoor ready to be installed at short notice).

    Since you are advising your client, this is the way to go :
    1. Get all the heat load that the tank will have - internal / external pumps (internal pumps dumps all its heat load (i.e Watt consumption ) into the water and externals probably about 80% (aquarium pumps are not efficient)
    2. Lighting heat load - you have to design for the worse case - so assume all lamps are turned on (i used 2 x 500 W metal halides and they are a 6 inches from water surface and are placed with reflectors) - So i assume all 500 W heat is channeled to the water.
    3. Take the worse ambient heat possible.

    Get the heat load - work out your desired cycle time and size the outdoor. The titanium cooling coils have variable sizes - it depends how precise you want to keep the water in the fixed temperature range

    Hope the above helps in your future works with aquariums

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Montreal Canada
    Posts
    2
    I modified a wall mounted water cooler to use as a chiller for my outdoor pond...works like a charm, got it for free.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTQHmQuPPMI

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Springville, NY
    Posts
    2,984
    Quote Originally Posted by johnqpublic View Post
    Cute little setup, im assuming the drier was the culprit since no more posts.
    The compressor was the problem. 2 of 4 supporting springs inside the unit were broken. I assume 1 broke and the other failed due to stress.

    Quote Originally Posted by HVAC_MY View Post
    HVAC_Marc

    I keep a marine tank with hard corals (SPS - agreed and knows by marine hobbyist as fussy corals that can die within a few hrs if conditions are not right) - they require water temp to be in the region of 26 Deg C. I live in the tropics where ambient temp hit 35 Deg C.
    I have similar setup but the easy way out of this is to go back to a simple system. I have given up on the "specially" built for aquarium systems as they are just too compact to be efficient. Here is what I have done

    1. 1.5 outdoor unit (standard home units) - non inverter type
    2. titanium coil
    3. A pump with flowrate calculated based on - required cycle time and tube size / coil length - (titanium coil as well and I estimated the length based on the tube size and volume of the cooling casing)
    4. A temperature controller set to cut in at 27 Deg C and cut off at 26 Deg C. I have alarms etc.
    5. Place coil and outdoor unit as close as possible and shortest route to the tank.

    My compressor cycles on/off about 15 mins interval and runs for about 4 to 5 mins.

    This installation keeps things simple - the compressor can be easily be replaced and all other items as well. If i am not confident of the unit, I just replace the outdoor unit because my lifestock is more precious and i leave the troubleshooting for another day ( I have a spare outdoor ready to be installed at short notice).

    Since you are advising your client, this is the way to go :
    1. Get all the heat load that the tank will have - internal / external pumps (internal pumps dumps all its heat load (i.e W, uv, heating, etc - att consumption ) into the water and externals probably about 80% (aquarium pumps are not efficient)
    2. Lighting heat load - you have to design for the worse case - so assume all lamps are turned on (i used 2 x 500 W metal halides and they are a 6 inches from water surface and are placed with reflectors) - So i assume all 500 W heat is channeled to the water.
    3. Take the worse ambient heat possible.

    Get the heat load - work out your desired cycle time and size the outdoor. The titanium cooling coils have variable sizes - it depends how precise you want to keep the water in the fixed temperature range

    Hope the above helps in your future works with aquariums
    My Dad's unit is very similar. There's 1500 watts of halide and 400 of various fluorescents. It's about 2 feet away laterally from the tank, and approximately 1 foot below the bottom of the tank. The water passes out of the chiller and into the sump tank - for aerobic filtration, protein skimming, uv, etc - and then is pumped back into the main tank. The temp monitor/alarm also resides in the sump tank. The entire house is air conditioned and does not rise above 74F.

    The repaired unit had been running on and off about every 30 minutes for between 8 and 10 minutes. Dad says it sounds and performs as it had when new. I think this is all I can ask for.

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Pacific NorthWest
    Posts
    24
    [QUOTE=HVAC_Marc;15442481]Hello!

    Proper charge on a capillary system is to keep your fingers wrapped around the discharge from the compressor until the pipe gets to hot to hold on...then count slowly to 10. Then stop filling......Thats a full charge

    The rattle of the compressor when it shuts off is due to a broken mounting foot inside the hermetic case. It may last 5 years and it may last 5 days. It is irrepairable

    If the suction (return) line has frost on it you are overcharged...simply slowly, very slowly, bleed freon from the system until the frost line melts slowly back to the evaporator outlet......that is a FULL CHARGE....guaranteed.

    The small filter dryer MUST be located at the very beginning of the capillary tube and the filter outlet and cap tube MUST point moderately DOWN...no exceptions. This helps maintain a liquid seal where the freon enters the capillary tube. This is the biggest mistake repair techs make on small refrigeration systems.

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Pacific NorthWest
    Posts
    24
    "I *AM* the reputable company"

    I believe these fellows are well intentioned, it is just that everything you have said indicates you know nothing about refrigeration units.

    Just opening a system is equivalent to opening the chest for heart surgery.......there is a long list of procedures that must be followed in an EXACT order......no exceptions. A repairman with a good grip can actually visualize what is happening anywhere in the system and does so with his hands, eyes and ears....it takes about 8 years to learn the ins and outs under a vastly experienced person.

    I learned from a 3rd generation refrigeration repairman and we worked on cacades to ammonia, centrifugal to belt driven and everything in between. There are a lot of old fashioned and simple techniques that are being lost in this industry simply because the manufacturers keep coming up with "gadgets" that supposedly solve the problems...electronic leak detectors, dye, measured charge apparatus, system evacuators and air evacuators...to name a few. A consequence is that the problems and clear understanding of the problems have been obscured and simple diagnosis and repairs are beyond the "ken" of most out there.

    I suggest you start your education over under the guidance of someone with at least 12 years under their belt. 2 or 3 years and you should be caught up.

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Springville, NY
    Posts
    2,984
    Quote Originally Posted by owlafaye View Post
    Hello!

    Proper charge on a capillary system is to keep your fingers wrapped around the discharge from the compressor until the pipe gets to hot to hold on...then count slowly to 10. Then stop filling......Thats a full charge

    Thank you. Good info if I should ever have to do it again.

    The rattle of the compressor when it shuts off is due to a broken mounting foot inside the hermetic case. It may last 5 years and it may last 5 days. It is irrepairable

    I figured as much. This is why the compressor was replaced. I did cut it open and found a broken support spring.

    If the suction (return) line has frost on it you are overcharged...simply slowly, very slowly, bleed freon from the system until the frost line melts slowly back to the evaporator outlet......that is a FULL CHARGE....guaranteed.

    Again, good information.

    The small filter dryer MUST be located at the very beginning of the capillary tube and the filter outlet and cap tube MUST point moderately DOWN...no exceptions. This helps maintain a liquid seal where the freon enters the capillary tube. This is the biggest mistake repair techs make on small refrigeration systems.

    The old one wasnt 'down'. The new one isnt either. It is horizontal, well above the old cap tube. The old drier was removed and the tubing bridged to the cap tube.
    Quote Originally Posted by owlafaye View Post
    "I *AM* the reputable company"

    I believe these fellows are well intentioned, it is just that everything you have said indicates you know nothing about refrigeration units.

    I stated that in the beginning of the thread.

    Just opening a system is equivalent to opening the chest for heart surgery.......there is a long list of procedures that must be followed in an EXACT order......no exceptions. A repairman with a good grip can actually visualize what is happening anywhere in the system and does so with his hands, eyes and ears....it takes about 8 years to learn the ins and outs under a vastly experienced person.

    I learned from a 3rd generation refrigeration repairman and we worked on cacades to ammonia, centrifugal to belt driven and everything in between. There are a lot of old fashioned and simple techniques that are being lost in this industry simply because the manufacturers keep coming up with "gadgets" that supposedly solve the problems...electronic leak detectors, dye, measured charge apparatus, system evacuators and air evacuators...to name a few. A consequence is that the problems and clear understanding of the problems have been obscured and simple diagnosis and repairs are beyond the "ken" of most out there.

    I suggest you start your education over under the guidance of someone with at least 12 years under their belt. 2 or 3 years and you should be caught up.

    I am impressed by the knowledge and experience of the refrigeration people on this forum. I dont belittle their jobs one bit. I have no interest in becoming a refrigeration tech, just as some refrigeration techs have no interest in the heating or plumbing jobs. I dont have the manpower, finances or time to handle commercial emergencies also. I did this job because my Dad asked me to.

    This small chiller system is similar to an AC system, except with a water exchanger. I know this, and have a decent working knowledge of residential AC, so it should be similar. Am I the best or do I know it all? Heck no, not even close! Having a lack of information to start with - specs, charge, cap tube information, etc. - left me to start on shaky feet. Had this been anyone else I wouldn't have done the job.

    Having cool tools is one thing. Knowing how to use them AND understanding what they tell you is another.
    .
    ~~
    Nest is poo...

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Mixing oil and fire with a big spoon.
    Posts
    4,395
    Quote Originally Posted by owlafaye View Post
    ...Proper charge on a capillary system is to keep your fingers wrapped around the discharge from the compressor until the pipe gets to hot to hold on...then count slowly to 10. Then stop filling......Thats a full charge...
    Please tell me you are kidding? I foun this so wrong and rediculous that I didn't even read the rest of your comment.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Springville, NY
    Posts
    2,984
    Quote Originally Posted by jayguy View Post
    Please tell me you are kidding? I foun this so wrong and rediculous that I didn't even read the rest of your comment.
    great! now im being taught wrong. lols. different methods used by everyone i suppose.

    i weighed in a base charge and then used temperatures and pressures to tweak the chiller.

    My Dad last week said it's still doing fine.
    ~~
    Nest is poo...

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Mass
    Posts
    373
    Quote Originally Posted by HVAC_Marc View Post
    great! now im being taught wrong. lols. different methods used by everyone i suppose.

    i weighed in a base charge and then used temperatures and pressures to tweak the chiller.

    My Dad last week said it's still doing fine.
    That is the right way. The other factor would be delta T across the barrel. But, since it is only 1degree, and it seems to be there, you did fine. As long as you are sending liquid to the cap, and getting cool vapor back to the compressor, you should be fine. As you reluctantly learn more about the systems operation, you'll get a better feel for it, and be able to tweak it if needed.

    Chase

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Springville, NY
    Posts
    2,984
    Quote Originally Posted by Chasespeed View Post
    That is the right way. The other factor would be delta T across the barrel. But, since it is only 1degree, and it seems to be there, you did fine. As long as you are sending liquid to the cap, and getting cool vapor back to the compressor, you should be fine. As you reluctantly learn more about the systems operation, you'll get a better feel for it, and be able to tweak it if needed.

    Chase
    Thanks. The positive reinforcement you give helps, too. It sounds corny, but it really does help.
    ~~
    Nest is poo...

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Mass
    Posts
    373
    Quote Originally Posted by HVAC_Marc View Post
    Thanks. The positive reinforcement you give helps, too. It sounds corny, but it really does help.
    No worries. No one ever walked up to their first chiller, and had it ALL figured out the first time around. I'm still learning. Hell, we're all still learning, some more than others.
    That's why I do commercial. If I ever stop learning, its time to move on.

    However, if you know the basics, you can get it going, and dial it in from there. With bigger chillers, hopefully someone left the start-up sheets there, it can really help w/ troubleshooting if you know how it ran when it was new...

    Chase

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Pacific NorthWest
    Posts
    24
    Well jayguy, think about it before jumping off into denial.

    We are talking a capillary system jayguy....The freon picks up heat in the evaporator right? The compressor compresses the freon and suddenly that heat is scrunched up into a high pressure gas. The discharge of this high pressure gas is HOT...well, when the freon level is correct, the compressor discharges at about 165 degrees F. You can't hold onto that for 10 seconds can you? So, when you have to let go, charge it for 10 more seconds and you will be within 3-5% of full charge. Close enough for a capillary system.... After 60+ years doing this successfully, I would imagine I learned a few "tricks of the trade" ehguy?

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