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  1. #1

    Question Payne indoor unit PF1MNC031: Can it handle R410a?

    I am faced with an outside unit change out following a failed compressor (original outdoor unit was a 2003 YORK ). My indoor unit is an Aug 2008 manufactured Payne PF1MNC031 (which was a replacement for the failed YORK indoor unit by the home warranty company in Sep 2008).

    I have been given these two options by 2 different HVAC companies

    1. A matched Payne 13 SEER outdoor R22 dry ship unit OR
    2. Upgrade to a Carrier 13 SEER 25HBC330 comfort series unit with R410a after purging and flushing existing line set while keeping the same indoor unit after changing the TXV valve

    Due to the cost of the R22 for option 1, the price difference is tolerable between the two.

    I have read the posts about the risks of "oil mixing" and "higher pressure related coil failure" on this forum. I am unable to confirm if the Payne PF1MNC031 coil can handle the R410a (even though the HVAC salesperson was not concerned about it). The sticker on the unit states Refrigerant 22 DESIGN PSIG 300. Does this mean that it CANNOT handle anything greater than 300 psi thus excluding 410 upgrade? Switching both indoor and outdoor to 410a is not economically viable for us now.

    Appreciate the input of the PROs. Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    1,675
    1) why did the original compressor fail?

    That is what needs to be found out first or before you make a decision.

    Honestly though you are between a rock and a hard place.

    The real issue in converting the coil over to 410 would could you get all the oil out of the evaporator coil. I have done them in the past and they have worked correctly but only on straight a/c not a heat pump. I use a refrigerant flush and recovery.

    will your contractor be able to do that and guarantee his work.

  3. #3
    I presumed it was the anticipated failure due to age (10 yr old heatpump, Bristol 29000BTU compressor); the previous owners were very negligent of their unit care; the unit must have had a harsh first 5 years.

  4. #4
    After getting nowhere trying to get the information from Payne customer service (they referred me to the HVAC serviceperson), I tracked down the product data for PF1MNC (my current fan coil) and what appeared to be a similar current product for 410a the PF4MN and guess what, the 12 pages of data were EXACT; the only changes were the series name and the replacement of the word R-22 in the first page under serviceability with the word "refriegerant-specific". Bottom line, the PF4MN fan coil is a rebadged PF1MNC. Yes, I know it would be preferable to get new indoor and outdoor matching units and throw in a new line set. But how many people can afford that especially for an unplanned repair without significant hardship? Why not be upfront with the customer with the pros and cons of different options including the risks/benefits and let them make an informed choice?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Upper Michigan
    Posts
    3,588
    Why did they say the unit would fail?

  6. #6
    The company that is offering the coil and line flush, new TXV and upgrade to 410 condenser has been around for 35 years; the techs are all CARRIER trained/certified and he said that the condenser will come with a 10 yr warranty; The install is covered by a 1 year parts and labor warranty.
    The others said that the only way to upgrade was a complete change out (condenser, indoor unit and lines) and did not give the above option. The only consensus I had from all 3 companies I got estimates from was that none recommended only changing out the busted compressor in the outdoor unit; instead they suggested a dry ship unit as a minimum.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    West Monroe, LA
    Posts
    1,535
    This is just my opion. I don't think there is a 100% sure fire way to flush a existing coil and get all the old refrigerant out of it. To many coil wraps, etc.. I am not saying that it can't be done and work. I am simply saying that sense I don't belive it can be done to 100% I don't and want recommend to a customer.

    If it was me I would just get the dry unit installed, have them presure the line set to check for leaks. Or just ahead and upgrade and install a new r-410 a system.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    34,179
    I wouldn't flush a coil, you'll never get the flush agent out. It will remain and could affect the new system.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,097
    Quote Originally Posted by duckman06 View Post
    This is just my opion. I don't think there is a 100% sure fire way to flush a existing coil and get all the old refrigerant out of it. To many coil wraps, etc.. I am not saying that it can't be done and work. I am simply saying that sense I don't belive it can be done to 100% I don't and want recommend to a customer.

    If it was me I would just get the dry unit installed, have them presure the line set to check for leaks. Or just ahead and upgrade and install a new r-410 a system.
    So you don't think a vacuum pulled to 500 microns will get all refrigerant out? If it doesn't, then it won't get all the moisture out of any system either.
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  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,665
    its always best to replace it all ,although there are many units running just fine where the indoor metering device was changed the coil and line set just blown out and a 410 outdoor unit installed . i would not use flush on a evap coil
    We really need change now

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    West Monroe, LA
    Posts
    1,535
    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    So you don't think a vacuum pulled to 500 microns will get all refrigerant out? If it doesn't, then it won't get all the moisture out of any system either.
    No that's not what I said!!! I said that I don't belive you can get all the old refrigerant out of a existing coil! On every install a vacuum should be pulled. 500 micron is ideal but sometimes can't be reached depending on your pump and conditions. That another story.

    If you are like me I take pride in my work and use the best possiable tools and practices for doing all the work we do. I will just say this about reusing a coil that has used r-22 in it that it is 2-10 years old.

    Local distrubor here had a contractor that was doing this exact thing using r-410 a outdoor unit with r-22/r-410a coil just changed the metering device and pulled a vacuum (supposely). Guess what after Mulitple compressors failures he was not allowed to sale the equipment anyone and was cut off.

    We will have to agree to disagree! I don't think that coil should be reused at all why take the chance? Justs my thoughts take them with a gram of salt or a $100 bill.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,097
    Haven't had a single problem reusing a coil that had R22 in it. If a vacuum can't get all the old R22 out of a coil. Then it can't get all the moisture out either.

    WAG. The contractor you spoke about, didn't flush the coil with nitrogen to get the old oil out. Had nothing to do with the R22 itself.
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  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Central IL
    Posts
    103
    A new metering devise a good flush with RX11 and a good vacuum pulled on this unit will servise and coil should be capable of handling 410A with no problem.

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