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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    clay county missouri
    Posts
    106
    Quote Originally Posted by Kobe RBVBD View Post
    Because I shouldn't have to tell the helper what to do all the freaking time. Pay attention to the order things are done and get them done before I need them.
    Its your job to teach.
    If you don't like it don't have a helper you know the slave you don't like. You know why he is standing there not doin anything you haven't taught him the proper order of operation.

    If he is on time and asks questions he wants to learn

    Be the big guy lead, be an example

    Not ment to single you out, that is the mentality that has f'ed with the trade

    Sent from my LGL35G using Tapatalk 2

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Dublin, CA
    Posts
    121
    Quote Originally Posted by daniel87829 View Post
    Its your job to teach.
    If you don't like it don't have a helper you know the slave you don't like. You know why he is standing there not doin anything you haven't taught him the proper order of operation.

    If he is on time and asks questions he wants to learn

    Be the big guy lead, be an example

    Not ment to single you out, that is the mentality that has f'ed with the trade

    Sent from my LGL35G using Tapatalk 2
    Or he's not paying attention. The **** goes both ways. In this circumstance the helper should be going the extra mile since I'm not getting paid extra to teach people. They are the ones wanting to be handed 15 years of experience and knowledge, they are the ones who have to go the extra mile to earn it.

    To be honest, it is nearly impossible for me to wrap my head around a helper thinking he is entitled to a journeyman's time, knowledge, and experience. When I was a helper I had the most impossible to work with bosses. I endured it, put in 200% every day, RAN all over the place, cleaned up if I have nothing to do, cleaned his truck if I still had nothing to do, paid attention to everything he was doing and never had to be told what to do twice. My bosses were extremely difficult to work with but at no point did I ever think to myself, "Wow he's sure an *******, I deserve to be taught, and it is his job to teach me!"

  3. #16
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Western, KY
    Posts
    3,173
    Quote Originally Posted by Carbon View Post
    After 2 weeks he definitely wasn't in the union yet. I would think that an employer would believe that after graduating trade school you would know enough not to put his company at risk for either a fine or lawsuit. It could have been a test to see how you handled it, and you failed. Now learn from it. read through all OSHA regulating to HVAC, and particularly to anything having to do with working off the ground. At our company we had a union trained employee who also was OSHA trained in ladder safety. Was standing on top of an OSHA approved ladder with all the warning signs attached. There was a video camera in the MER room he was working in that showed him on the top of the ladder, totally against company policy, and he fell off. Our insurance company advised us that because of his stupidity our insurance will have to pay out over a million dollars and our rates will go up accordingly.
    Umm... he's saying he got fired because he used the ladder SAFELY and another mechanic got on the top rung. So... He passed.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Western, KY
    Posts
    3,173
    Quote Originally Posted by hurtinhvac View Post
    I'm still trying to shake a good amount of resentment towards our senior techs and I think you've managed to nail it and rub salt in an open wound at the same time.

    I was as green as you can get two years ago so it's all still very fresh. I'm very adament that the bulk of the responsibilty of initial training rests squarely on the shoulders of the experienced installers. All I can bring you as a newbie is willingness, a basic awareness of what everything is and a reasonable attitude - which my people quickly soured...in record time. And I'm no young buck; I've had many years to mature, mold and temper my attitude.

    So how often do you expect a newbie to ask how he can help before he is pestering? Where is that line? Because I absolutely made a point to ask at least three times because my guys totally freaking ignored me. I recall feeling about three inches tall. Here I am, did everything required to get to this point and suddenly, at the whim of some piece of work lead installer with severe attitude issues (b*tching about the job, the equipment, the boss, the salesman, talking on the cell phone over some home crisis), I am being taught nothing. Might as well not even be there.

    Then it gets back to the boss that while I am eager to help and respond quickly and helpfully to all requests; I also lack initiative and am argumentative. Really!!!??? I lack initiative because I don't know what the hell is supposed to happen next and they are being about as instructive as a GD rock? I'm argumentative because I ask detailed questions? Feeling a little insecure you POS, half *zzed hack of an installer? In fairness to the rest of you, my outfit is rife with personal conflicts and baggage and is probably an extreme example.

    Well...clearly I'm not over it completely. I don't mind telling you it really stung and made for some horrible days for me, sometimes contemplating leaving the company or even the industry. Ultimately I chose revenge served nice and cold. Just by pushing thru, learning and working well. It also does not hurt that I have now been behind each and every one of them a couple times, fixing their mistakes. And without a doubt, you guys and this site made all the difference in the world - I could not say that enough!

    Now a couple years later they want to joke about it. And everytime they do I'll intentionally walk right past a pile of scrap, hands completely free, on my way to my truck. Or they'll ask me to hand them their bag at the foot of a latter and I'll ignore them the same damn way they did me until they whine "aw c'mon, dammit...just hand me the damn bag will ya...?"

    I suspect this is why I'm 95% service during the busy months and that suits me just fine. It's also curious that if I'm not scheduled to work during the slow months and the installers feel overwhelmed with a job, they will request me and call me out to the job. Though sometimes I suspect it's just to have me do the outside work on a bitterly cold day. Gotta be careful with that revenge stuff - it can come back in a hurry. Whatever - so now I know I can sweat pipe in frigid blustery conditions.

    Why not just be frank with new helpers and tell them what's expected. Just tell them keep your hands out and ready, never go back and forth to the working area empty handed, gonna need the nitro in a few and you can put the ox/acet rig away...pump comes next, gonna need some electricity and extension cord etc. Is it so freaking hard to talk out loud while you are doing something you've done literally thousands of times?

    If they fail to respond it's on them. If you ain't makin' the effort, pal...it's on you.

    I know...I'm done - sorry about the hissy fit reply.
    Hey hurtin, tell us how you really feel!
    Just kidding, my experience in six years has been that this site is awesome and beyond that... good luck. I've been around two good instructors out of all the classes I've taken. The ironic thing is that the one who helped nudge me to pursue my own knowledge, from realizing how wrong so many techs were, was trash talked a lot by the crappy techs and installers. Why, because they would go to one of his classes and they would spew some garbage and try to mess up his class, wrong move, he would systematically destroy any argument they tried to make and embarrass them, they deserved it, they were being a$$es. After a couple of his classes I was like that's it, I'm going to learn this stuff backwards and forwards, one because I want to be one of the best. Two because I want to hold my ground against the bums. Three because I want to help the other mechs coming up/trying to find the info to improve but can't get the help.

    A couple other things I've observed are that this industry can be flat out cut throat and this breeds nasty side effects, guys lying about you(happened to me many times), people afraid of being laid off every slow season so they get jealous or hateful, journeyman/masters who believe all that knowledge they gained from somewhere(they weren't born with it!) is proprietary, who hoard that knowledge like a gold stash and go out of there way to not teach anyone(didn't happen to me but I've seen it happen). No telling how many new guys get run off by all the jerks.

    Here's my approach, be nice to everyone that isn't a complete a'hole and even be nice to them until they ruin it. Help everyone as much as possible, I don't hoard anything, everything I've learned(mostly this site) I share with anyone who ask's or is open to learning. I do every job well, want me to install ok, put that run up in the 1 block swamp house ok, spider man my way though trusses running flex ok, change out that compressor ok, as long as the company has my back and I'm getting paid there is no work beneath mason. I try to be the ultimate team player, now if a manager or owner decides he's not into that then they shouldn't be surprised when I go find another company to bring my work ethic and skills to.

    Hurtin, in a couple more years with certs, licenses, a good interview pitch, you will be a hot commodity because companies have a terrible time finding mechs who are truly legit. Another tip is to always try and change jobs while employed, so if you don't like the methods of the current place, stick it out till you're in a good position and apply at other shops, everybody knows the best techs are employed and you either have to steal them or hire them when they walk in to find a new place/upgrade, being currently employed may be one of the best things to have on a resume.


    Hang in there, don't let them make you a hater : )!

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    St. Louis
    Posts
    3,425
    Quote Originally Posted by Kobe RBVBD View Post
    Or he's not paying attention. The **** goes both ways. In this circumstance the helper should be going the extra mile since I'm not getting paid extra to teach people. They are the ones wanting to be handed 15 years of experience and knowledge, they are the ones who have to go the extra mile to earn it.

    To be honest, it is nearly impossible for me to wrap my head around a helper thinking he is entitled to a journeyman's time, knowledge, and experience. When I was a helper I had the most impossible to work with bosses. I endured it, put in 200% every day, RAN all over the place, cleaned up if I have nothing to do, cleaned his truck if I still had nothing to do, paid attention to everything he was doing and never had to be told what to do twice. My bosses were extremely difficult to work with but at no point did I ever think to myself, "Wow he's sure an *******, I deserve to be taught, and it is his job to teach me!"
    Then we had very similar experiences. However I would never turn around and do that to someone else. And I do feel you are obligated in any trade, craft or occupation to teach those behind you. If not for your company's sake, then for the sake of simple character. If you want my help, you will teach me. If not I'll be on my way, and the help you end up with will only be the variety that puts up with that sort of nonsense.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    St. Louis
    Posts
    3,425
    Quote Originally Posted by mason View Post


    Hang in there, don't let them make you a hater : )!
    Thank you, Mason. I'm really not that angry - just have moments here and there when I think of it. Such a waste of time and so damn juvenile.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    clay county missouri
    Posts
    106
    You listed the problem

    Buisness want free labor.don't wanna pay to train

    We are not in the old days were you are master apprentice. Now we are in a different world if a journeymen trains a helper, he is training his replacment, his cheaper replacment. Its not the helpers fault. Its the buisness/ customer not being forced to pay. Undercutting shisters.
    You aren't being paid to train. Who's fault is it really. Why blame the New helper, the only innocent . Now there are many lazzy s?!&@ out there but the problem is weeding put the lazzy ones. Which goes back to society parrent school and the gov





    Sent from my LGL35G using Tapatalk 2

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Morgan Hill Ca.
    Posts
    1,219
    Quote Originally Posted by daniel87829 View Post
    You listed the problem

    Buisness want free labor.don't wanna pay to train

    We are not in the old days were you are master apprentice. Now we are in a different world if a journeymen trains a helper, he is training his replacment, his cheaper replacment. Its not the helpers fault. Its the buisness/ customer not being forced to pay. Undercutting shisters.
    You aren't being paid to train. Who's fault is it really. Why blame the New helper, the only innocent . Now there are many lazzy s?!&@ out there but the problem is weeding put the lazzy ones. Which goes back to society parrent school and the gov





    Sent from my LGL35G using Tapatalk 2
    There is no way I could disagree any more. It would take a galactic force to even get me to lean a bit your direction.

    We are training our replacements... That's the idea. If there are not quality people following in my footsteps, my retirement wont be worth spit.

    GT
    If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    clay county missouri
    Posts
    106
    Quote Originally Posted by GT Jets View Post
    There is no way I could disagree any more. It would take a galactic force to even get me to lean a bit your direction.

    We are training our replacements... That's the idea. If there are not quality people following in my footsteps, my retirement wont be worth spit.

    GT
    Your opinion/ experience is fair and your own. My statement were based on my experience as well as from ones i know.
    Different buisnesses and diffetent techs different experience

    There are numerous examples of business using journeymen to train a couple new guys then kaying off the journeymen, its a cost saving measure. This may not be all buisnesses but when even a minority go this, it affects many. Its called the cascade/ snowball effect.

    If you/ your company have morals then i applaud you. But in big cities the minority have morals.

    Sent from my LGL35G using Tapatalk 2

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Omaha NE
    Posts
    109
    I worked for a company last summer as an entry level installer. I worked with 3 senior techs and they all had quite different approaches to working with a green helper. The first guy they put me with was not a people person. This guy would tell me to get something off of the truck, but not tell me where it was in the truck or what it looked like. I would ask once or twice for a better description of what he wanted and more times than not he would ignore me. (thanks for the help pal!) This guy was good at his job, but had no intention of helping me learn anything. So I did the best I could with what I could pick up by watching him.
    The 2nd guy they put me with was a great guy, funny. He would answer my questions and had a nice, dry sense of humor. The only problem with him was that he would tell me what he was doing, but he rarely let me do anything too technical. This was okay, because I was still learning things from him and doing the best I could to help and not slow him down.
    The 3rd guy I was with was the best tech they had. he could do anything it seemed. We installed residential and commercial air conditioners, roof tops, gas lines, condensate lines, furnaces,thermostats, 80%, 90%, even one ductless system. I would ask him a question and he would explain it and then say "now you do it". He would even quiz me on theory when we were riding in the truck. I thought "I wish they would just assign me to him all the time".
    I even asked him why he was so helpful, and he told me that he remembered when he first started and how he appreciated the guys that would share their knowledge. Me to!
    After the busy season the weaselly supervisor let me go, he told me I was too slow. I was thinking, I am still learning. He was not interested in giving me more than 3 months to get up to his standards. Fine, he is the boss, I learned a lot in my time there. I went back to school for another 3 months, got my refrigeration certification, and now I am looking again. Good luck to both of us!

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by GT Jets View Post
    Sorry for your troubles. Don't get discouraged. more importantly, try to forget about it.
    Roger that! and I repeat..don't get discouraged. I'm a firm believer in things happening for a reason and I think it was good karma for you to be let go..considering the way that supervisor neglects safety, I just smell something bad happening in the future, had you still been employed with them. Never forget...safety first! That was drilled into our heads at Trades School.

    As far as looking for and finding a new company to work for...stay positive and don't give up. It took me 8 months to finally land a job in this trade.

    Good luck!

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,663
    Good posts, My opinion is when all else fails time to beat that dude till he cries for mama.
    My name is TooCoolforschool and I am a chronic over charger.

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,663
    Serioulsy one has to find where he fits then work his way up, I'm still trying but doing better. My experience is if I have to walk on eggshells everyday then might be time to look elsewhere, no job is worth being abused.
    My name is TooCoolforschool and I am a chronic over charger.

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