Being proactive and buying a new heat pump

[Finch]

Hello everyone,

My name is Donnie and I am from SW Virginia. My wife and I live in a 2200 sq ft 2 story home that was built in 1979. We have a little one on the way next month and it has me thinking about buying a new heat pump. Our house needs an upgrade anyway but I also don't want our current unit to fail during the hottest time of the year with an infant at home.

We currently have a 1991 Rheem outside unit and a 1979 Ruud air handler (that's right, the original that was installed in the home). Really don't have any complaints. The house cools and heats and we haven't had to have any service work performed on either device for the 4.5 years we've lived here. I wonder if we should even upgrade at this point but I guess it's inevitable that something will fail at the worst time.

We've settled on either a Trane XL16i or XL20i with the Hyperiorn XL air handler. With the current Trane rebates, the price difference is negligible for whichever unit we choose. Now my questions:

Should I even upgrade if my current system is working?

Is the XL20i communication unit that much better than a 16i to justify the few hundred dollar increase in price?

Is either the XL16i or XL20i paired with the Hyperion XL eligible for the $300 tax rebate? The ratings have to be:

Split:
HSPF >= 8.5
and
EER >= 12.5
and
SEER >= 15

Thanks!

[motoguy128]

You're in a pretty humid climate. IF you can afford it, definitely go with the XL20i with hte communcating thermostat... expecially if it's only a little more after rebates. I had a simlar decision between a Carrier Infinity 19 vs 16 Heat pump and I went with the 19 because after rebates it was only a little more. THe XL20i is one step better since it has 2 compressors and cna run at either 50% or 100%. IF sized right, it will still run in hte 50% speed probably 3/4 of the time.

Both units with that air handlers should easily reach those effceincy numbers. I'd have to look it up, but the XL20i in the 4 tons (probably all you need.,.. but GET A LOAD CALC TO VERY DONT JUST SIZE OF THE EXISTING UNIT) is probably around a HSPF of 9.5 and 18 SEER. A 5 ton will be lower. And 3 ton a little higher at probably HSPF of 10 and 19 SEER. IF will depend on what size indoor air handler you match it to.

You also might look into zoning as well for now or the future.


FOr reference you can also meet those ratings with a XL15i, XR15 or XR16 and possibly an XR14 depending on hte match. A Trane experts will probably come along an post AHRI ratings data here soon.

[Finch]

Thanks for the reply. Our current heat pump is a 3.5 ton. Of the 4 quotes I've had, no one mentioned a Manual J which is disappointing. The company that I have the best "gut" feeling about told me I'd be fine with a 4 ton but I could bring my home's blueprints by their office and they could calculate it for me. From my research, I think blueprints alone would not suffice. I honestly think that would still tell me to get a 4 ton unit which would probably be fine anyway.

I asked the lady if the unit I was looking at would be tax credit eligible and this is what she wrote.

TO QUALIFY ON THE 20 SEER ON THE PAPERWORK IT SHOWS TO USE THE TAM7 INSTEAD OF THE TAM8 (COMMUNICATING) AND ON THE 16 & 15 SEER BOTH QUALIFY WITH THE TAM7 BLOWER CABINET. I CAN MAKE THE 20 SEER WORK BUT IF YOU PURCHASE THE 20 SEER YOU WOULD WANT TO KEEP IT COMMUNICATING. NOT SURE WHY THEY HAVE IT THAT WAY......THEY MAY NOT HAVE UPDATED THEIR TAX FORM PAPERS

Anyone know if a XL20i paired with a TAM8 air handler would be tax credit eligible?

Also, I have a problem. My clothes dryer exhaust vent is almost dead center of my outside unit. If I relocate the dryer vent anywhere within the laundry room closet, it still would blow out onto the unit. Do I have any other options besides relocating the new unit away from the dryer vent? Any way to divert the dryer exhaust away but still be aesthetically appealing? Also, my line-set enters the house inside the washer/dryer area and then 90's up along the wall, goes across the ceiling, and comes down to the air handler. I'm thinking with the new unit, I'll have them just enter the house at the same spot but run the new line-set behind the washer and dryer and into the air handler. Thoughts?

[duckman06]

Thanks for the reply. Our current heat pump is a 3.5 ton. Of the 4 quotes I've had, no one mentioned a Manual J which is disappointing. The company that I have the best "gut" feeling about told me I'd be fine with a 4 ton but I could bring my home's blueprints by their office and they could calculate it for me. From my research, I think blueprints alone would not suffice. I honestly think that would still tell me to get a 4 ton unit which would probably be fine anyway.

I asked the lady if the unit I was looking at would be tax credit eligible and this is what she wrote.



Anyone know if a XL20i paired with a TAM8 air handler would be tax credit eligible?

Also, I have a problem. My clothes dryer exhaust vent is almost dead center of my outside unit. If I relocate the dryer vent anywhere within the laundry room closet, it still would blow out onto the unit. Do I have any other options besides relocating the new unit away from the dryer vent? Any way to divert the dryer exhaust away but still be aesthetically appealing? Also, my line-set enters the house inside the washer/dryer area and then 90's up along the wall, goes across the ceiling, and comes down to the air handler. I'm thinking with the new unit, I'll have them just enter the house at the same spot but run the new line-set behind the washer and dryer and into the air handler. Thoughts?

Yes the XL20i will be eliable for $300
Tax credit when paired with variable speed. This system can be used with either the tam7 (non comm.) or tam8 (comm. air handler). I would Chosse the tam8 with the XL20 so it will be commicating system. As others have posted systems from Trane's XR15-XL20 can quality for federal tax credits and special financing options or instant rebates when paired with a variable speed air handler. You still need to get a load cal done to ensure proper sizing!!!!


As for the dry vent coming out right behind the unit. Is there room to the left of the existing unit and pad to move it over. If so I would suggest relocating it as far away from the dryer vent as per you can be relocating. Do they plan to reuse the existing line set or pull a new one. If a new line will be pulled they should be able to bring it through the attic and out the side of the house or at the eave. They could install a line set cover for looks. Where is your air handler located in a closet or attic?

If your budget will allow I would choose the XL20 over the XL16 due to having 2 compressors and better performance for comfort and effeicenty reasons. What size line set do you have now? Looks like 3/4 and 3/8 from the pic but I could be wrong? Depending on the distance from the air handler and some other variables most (4) ton systems need 7/8 and 3/8 line set sizes to work properly.

This questions should be covered by your installing company along with a load cal. To again ensure proper size heat pump for your home! Please post back answers to questions.

[RyanHughes]

Depending on the distance from the air handler and some other variables most (4) ton systems need 7/8 and 3/8 line set sizes to work properly.

Good advice but I'll just add one thing. Of course it depends on the TEL of the lineset run, but Trane wants 3/4" x 3/8" for the 4 ton and 5 ton XL20i heat pumps up to 60 feet. XL16i specs do show 7/8" suction line. Especially important to go smaller (i.e., 3/4") with the 20i for adequate oil return when the 2 ton compressor is running.

[duckman06]

Good advice but I'll just add one thing. Of course it depends on the TEL of the lineset run, but Trane wants 3/4" x 3/8" for the 4 ton XL20i heat pump (as well as some other 4 ton models) up to 60 feet. XL16i specs do show 7/8" suction line. Especially important to go smaller (i.e., 3/4") with the 20i for adequate oil return when the 2 ton compressor is running.

Interesting! I did not no that. What do they suggest when a changing out say a 4 ton system that is already sized with 7/8 and 3/8 (old single stage system) to a XL20? Do they want you to pull a 3/4 suction line?

[RyanHughes]

I'm going by Trane's published literature and don't intend to speak on the engineers' behalf, but I have to imagine they would strongly encourage it, considering even the 5 ton 20i calls for 3/4" gas line. Of course it isn't always possible, and I'm sure 20i systems have been installed numerous times on existing oversized linesets. Just my 2 cents, but if you're buying an XL20i, I would do whatever it takes to replace the lineset.

[duckman06]

Good advice but I'll just add one thing. Of course it depends on the TEL of the lineset run, but Trane wants 3/4" x 3/8" for the 4 ton and 5 ton XL20i heat pumps up to 60 feet. XL16i specs do show 7/8" suction line. Especially important to go smaller (i.e., 3/4") with the 20i for adequate oil return when the 2 ton compressor is running.

I'm going by Trane's published literature and don't intend to speak on the engineers' behalf, but I have to imagine they would strongly encourage it, considering even the 5 ton 20i calls for 3/4" gas line. Of course it isn't always possible, and I'm sure 20i systems have been installed numerous times on existing oversized linesets. Just my 2 cents, but if you're installing an XL20i, I would do whatever it takes to replace the lineset.

Thanks Ryan. I will have to discuss this with Trane tech Feild service tech as I asked summar questions on another install about this matter. He said should not be a probelm. This was on xl20 system. Again very interesting!

Also Ryan what do it say about say XL15 systems heat pumps? Example (3) ton. Do they still suggest using 3/4 and 3/8 or are smaller sizing such as 5/8 and 5/16 ok as long as under 50 foot long. I would think not but curious?

[BaldLoonie]

We tend to find that the current duct system is undersized for what you have. So if you or your dealer think you need to go bigger, odds are the duct system should be enlarged to properly handle this extra capacity. Otherwise, with the variable speed blower, you could have unwanted air noise as it tries to move 1600 CFM through the old ducts. And the motor will draw excess power which effectively lowers efficiency so you won't get the SEER and HSPF you are paying for and think you are getting.

Only an accurate load calc will tell but we run mid 90s for sizing and the average 2200 sq ft home with typical insulation and window area rarely gets over a 3 ton unit.

[Finch]

They stated they would replace the line-set. The smaller tube is 1/4" which they stated was way too small. The bigger line looks to be 3/4". It's probably no more than 12' from the outside unit to the air handler which is on first floor (I'm on a slab). In the pic where you see the line-set entering the house, that is the end of the laundry closet. I really don't have any options of moving the vent because it will still blow onto the heatpump. Guess I'll just have them move the heat pump over to the right closer to our patio.

I looked on the contractor map on this forum and the closest "approved contractor" to me is a little over an hour away. I guess I should call them to see if they would do a load calculation for me? Do companies come out just to do load calcs even if you plan to hire someone else for the heatpump install? I'd pay them of course for their time and travel but would that be a slap in the face not to use them for the install?

[RyanHughes]

Thanks Ryan. I will have to discuss this with Trane tech Feild service tech as I asked summar questions on another install about this matter. He said should not be a probelm. This was on xl20 system. Again very interesting!

Interesting. What it a straight AC? The OP is looking at heat pumps, but 7/8" suction is actually what's listed for the 4TTZ048-060 ironically enough. I guess they want to make sure that in the wintertime oil return isn't an issue for the smaller compressor.

Also Ryan what do it say about say XL15 systems heat pumps? Example (3) ton. Do they still suggest using 3/4 and 3/8 or are smaller sizing such as 5/8 and 5/16 ok as long as under 50 foot long. I would think not but curious?

Good question. 3/4" x 3/8" is what they suggest. I would think 5/8" suction isn't so much a problem as long as the lineset isn't very long, but I'm with you, I would think the 5/16" liquid line isn't ideal for a R410A system. I'm recalling your thread a few weeks back or so when Mark (whose experience I respect) warned against 1/4" LL for R410A systems due to excess stress on the compressor. Is 5/16" acceptable? I'd like to know myself.

.

[RyanHughes]

They stated they would replace the line-set. The smaller tube is 1/4" which they stated was way too small. The bigger line looks to be 3/4". It's probably no more than 12' from the outside unit to the air handler which is on first floor (I'm on a slab). In the pic where you see the line-set entering the house, that is the end of the laundry closet. I really don't have any options of moving the vent because it will still blow onto the heatpump. Guess I'll just have them move the heat pump over to the right closer to our patio.

I looked on the contractor map on this forum and the closest "approved contractor" to me is a little over an hour away. I guess I should call them to see if they would do a load calculation for me? Do companies come out just to do load calcs even if you plan to hire someone else for the heatpump install? I'd pay them of course for their time and travel but would that be a slap in the face not to use them for the install?

Some will provide this service for a fee. You'd be going about it the right way by being upfront with them. Then again, if you are in their service area and they possess the skills to do this task properly, they might be the right company you want to consider to do the install.

Keep in mind the importance of having an adequate air distribution system for a new system (BL's post), especially when looking for high efficiency. If they say it is, they should be able to quantitatively tell you why it is sufficient. As you can imagine, some people know how to sell systems, and they do it well. Others know how to sell systems that are correctly designed for your home and needs. If the current 3.5 ton is a bit oversized, and a load calc shows 3 tons is appropriate at design conditions, then a 3 ton XL20i or XL16i would be a major improvement both comfort and efficiency wise. Especially if your ductwork is less than optimal, and in the majority of homes it is. I don't intend for any of my comments to criticize who you had to your home. We do not know their reputation or credentials, but hopefully if you continue to post here and read these forums you will have the ability to discern between contractors and select the right system for your home and family. Good luck. The good news is you have some time to do your research, and your current system works.

[BaldLoonie]

Www.hvaccomputer.com and do your own for $49

Sent from my HTC VLE_U using Tapatalk 2

[duckman06]

.

Yes Ryan that is the reason I was asking which was in reference to post I did a few weeks back. I looked at that job over 6 months ago and failed to take good notes (which is not like me but it happend). Any ways I don't recall if suction was 3/4 or 5/8 and if liquid line was 1/4 or 5/16. I did suggest a new line set. I do remember that the existing system was a 1991 trane XL1200 heat pump paired with a variable speed air handler. It worked great for 20 plus years until power surge got variable speed module. Does any one know what would have been standard line set sizes used back in the early 90's or what was speced for trane then?

[dan sw fl]

Hello everyone,

My name is Donnie and I am from SW Virginia. My wife and I live in a 2200 sq ft 2 story home that was built in 1979. We have a little one on the way next month and it has me thinking about buying a new heat pump. Our house needs an upgrade anyway but I also don't want our current unit to fail during the hottest time of the year with an infant at home.

We currently have a 1991 Rheem outside unit and a 1979 Ruud air handler (that's right, the original that was installed in the home). Really don't have any complaints. The house cools and heats and we haven't had to have any service work performed on either device for the 4.5 years we've lived here. I wonder if we should even upgrade at this point but I guess it's inevitable that something will fail at the worst time.

We've settled on either a Trane XL16i or XL20i with the Hyperiorn XL air handler.
Is the XL20i communication unit that much better than a 16i to justify the few hundred dollar increase in price?

Is either the XL16i or XL20i paired with the Hyperion XL eligible for the $300 tax rebate?

Small rebate from VA utility may apply to some units.

https://www.dom.com/dominion-virgini...pgrade-faq.jsp

Inquire about addition of 5" filter.

[Finch]

Www.hvaccomputer.com and do your own for $49

Sent from my HTC VLE_U using Tapatalk 2

I actually downloaded the trial version a week or so ago and forgot about doing so. Is it pretty easy to use for someone not in the HVAC field?

Small rebate from VA utility may apply to some units.

https://www.dom.com/dominion-virgini...pgrade-faq.jsp

Inquire about addition of 5" filter.

Thanks for the link but I am served by AEP. I don't believe they offer any incentives. Is the 5" Media filter worth it? They gave me a quote for that and the filters seem to be pretty expensive for this.

[RyanHughes]

I actually downloaded the trial version a week or so ago and forgot about doing so. Is it pretty easy to use for someone not in the HVAC field?

As long as you know or can at least obtain the values it's asking for, then yes. Note that there is a great video tutorial for the software as well.

[Finch]

Well, still no heat pump yet.

I'm kinda bummed that no one close by that I've found can perform a Manual J. The one's that are an hour away aren't willing to make the drive to my house which is understandable. I'm a little overwhelmed with the DIY software and would prefer someone to just come out.

Our 2200' sq ft home has had all 16 windows replaced with energy efficient ones. We've replaced the roof as well (not sure if that factors in) and we have T1-11 wood siding. Does this give any an idea if a 4 ton WOULD be too big for our home. Should I measure the ducts and returns to see if they are undersized?

[motoguy128]

The roof wouldn't matter unless you went with a steel roof or added insulation on top of the roof deck.