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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
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    3
    This is very true. 410 is a upgrade

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Dacula, GA
    Posts
    12,021
    Quote Originally Posted by ammoniadog View Post
    All of the "correct" answers have been given already, however, if you are in a large bind (or are just a lazy hack), I doubt anything bad would happen if you mix refrigerants in small amounts, as long as the p-t charts are close for both of them. The system would probably work just fine.

    The problem is, I believe this is against the law according to the EPA. Also, it creates an issue when it comes time to turn in the used refrigerant mixture, since the reclaim company will likely have to destroy it and will charge you a lot of money to do so. This means that if you mix the refrigerants, and the next guy unknowingly recovers it and tries to turn it in, he will get a not so nice surprise. Also, it could cause warranty issues if the compressor manufacturer finds out.
    Spoken like a true hack. LOL. Sorry just kidding, couldn't resist. Your right though if the P-t charts are close and you use only a little (since the meniral oil would mix well with replacement).

    And one more thing, the next guy who got stuck with the "mixed" frigerant might want to turn you in also. Thank you, thank you very much
    "I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."
    "I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them."
    Barry Goldwater

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Guayaquil EC
    Posts
    10,085
    From the scuttlebutt I hear at the supply house, their sales of MO99 have understandably increased dramatically, however according to the counter guys, there's reportedly a significant percentage of techs who openly admit...or even brag...about topping off with MO99 in R22 systems.

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Tallahassee, FL
    Posts
    5,821
    e
    Quote Originally Posted by icemeister View Post
    From the scuttlebutt I hear at the supply house, their sales of MO99 have understandably increased dramatically, however according to the counter guys, there's reportedly a significant percentage of techs who openly admit...or even brag...about topping off with MO99 in R22 systems.
    Do you think I could market my services to test the purity of r22 as a pass / fail type basis in my area ....basically would anyone care enough ?

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    125
    NU 22 is a " drop in" it's 40....something. mfg. is helpful. They have lots of "cool" stuff. It is a blend. someone earlier said small amounts may work if p/t close... I sorta agree. I would pull 22. leak test evacuate etc.then use NU 22

    my 2 cents
    Do it right the 1st. time!

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Guayaquil EC
    Posts
    10,085
    Quote Originally Posted by SBKold View Post
    Do you think I could market my services to test the purity of r22 as a pass / fail type basis in my area ....basically would anyone care enough ?
    In theory, it might work...but IMO the reality is that those who would care enough to follow all the rules...like actually doing the recovery, return and tracking...would likely pony up for a refrigerant analyzer(s) themselves.

    If you think about it, when the EPA first mandated refrigerant recovery, the necessary equipment was all quite expensive. I think I paid something like $1300 just for the recovery machine back in 1993. While analysis isn't really "required", it's readily apparent there's a real $$ risk you take recovering anything these days not know for sure what it is.

    So it would make good business sense to get the needed tool...and simply charge the customer for its use.

    It would also make sense that the supply houses have testing available for a nominal fee, but I haven't heard of that happening...yet.

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    20,266
    Quote Originally Posted by hvac5646 View Post
    Not when the equipment is less than 10 years.

    And does this also mean a pro won't use an R22 dry unit?
    This PRO considers it a bad value for his customers.

    Put yourself in the shoes of someone purchasing a system... rather than a contractor trying to sell this or that.

    Where is the value in a higher priced AC unit (condenser) that uses EXPENSIVE freon (and does not come with any juice in it... so charging it costs even MORE), and only has a 5 year warranty?
    Why not get a cheaper AC unit, already charged, top it off with cheap juice, and get a 10 year warranty.

    It is RARE I see a 13 SEER coil attached to a dead AC unit. Most of the time the coil is 10 SEER (or maybe 12 SEER). This means a coil change. And if you are gonna change the coil AND AC unit... then dry units make even less sense to me... see above.

    Now even if one uses a replacement for 22 refrigerant... they are still charging from zero rather than a unit pre-charged... and even then the juice costs more than 410.

    Just get with the times guy...

    Honestly, I do not see value in R-22 equipment anymore.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Galatians 2:20-21; Colossians 1: 21-22 & 26-27; 3:1-4; Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service.

  8. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    This PRO considers it a bad value for his customers.

    Put yourself in the shoes of someone purchasing a system... rather than a contractor trying to sell this or that.

    Where is the value in a higher priced AC unit (condenser) that uses EXPENSIVE freon (and does not come with any juice in it... so charging it costs even MORE), and only has a 5 year warranty?
    Why not get a cheaper AC unit, already charged, top it off with cheap juice, and get a 10 year warranty.

    It is RARE I see a 13 SEER coil attached to a dead AC unit. Most of the time the coil is 10 SEER (or maybe 12 SEER). This means a coil change. And if you are gonna change the coil AND AC unit... then dry units make even less sense to me... see above.

    Now even if one uses a replacement for 22 refrigerant... they are still charging from zero rather than a unit pre-charged... and even then the juice costs more than 410.

    Just get with the times guy...

    Honestly, I do not see value in R-22 equipment anymore.
    I am with the times Grandad

    But I and a lot of other forum members are not going to go back to customers with relatively young R22 equipment and put a finger in HOs face and say, "See..I told you R22 would get outrageous...now buy this shiny new R410A system, cause I warned you this would happen".


    You sound a little preachy to night. Drink a twelve and get back to me.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    20,266
    Quote Originally Posted by hvac5646 View Post
    I am with the times Grandad

    But I and a lot of other forum members are not going to go back to customers with relatively young R22 equipment and put a finger in HOs face and say, "See..I told you R22 would get outrageous...now buy this shiny new R410A system, cause I warned you this would happen".


    You sound a little preachy to night. Drink a twelve and get back to me.
    So why is the system you sold then less than 10 years ago having issues... sounds to me like a hack installed it.

    My systems do not act like that... do yours?
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Galatians 2:20-21; Colossians 1: 21-22 & 26-27; 3:1-4; Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service.

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by hvac5646 View Post
    I am with the times Grandad

    But I and a lot of other forum members are not going to go back to customers with relatively young R22 equipment and put a finger in HOs face and say, "See..I told you R22 would get outrageous...now buy this shiny new R410A system, cause I warned you this would happen".



    You sound a little preachy to night. Drink a twelve and get back to me.
    What will you tell them when 410 is $500? I guarantee you its coming and sooner than you expect. Won't be long before we're cooling with air compressors.lol

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Western PA
    Posts
    24,982
    Quote Originally Posted by hvac5646 View Post
    I am with the times Grandad

    But I and a lot of other forum members are not going to go back to customers with relatively young R22 equipment and put a finger in HOs face and say, "See..I told you R22 would get outrageous...now buy this shiny new R410A system, cause I warned you this would happen".


    You sound a little preachy to night. Drink a twelve and get back to me.
    If that is your sales technique...


  12. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by jpsmith1cm View Post
    If that is your sales technique...

    You're twisting my meaning.

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Western PA
    Posts
    24,982
    Quote Originally Posted by hvac5646 View Post

    You're twisting my meaning.
    I think that GA's point is that we, as an industry, should have paid closer attention to what the writing on the wall said and made the leap to 410a sooner.

    But, Nooooooo, we cried, whined and waffled about high pressures and hygroscopic oil. We didn't want to learn anything new, we just wanted R-22 back.

    We sold customers new R-22 units right up to the deadline and we're still doing in in some places and some cases. Are we stupid?

    Educate our customers. Teach them the benefits of a new system that has been PROPERLY sized, designed and installed and that is PROPERLY maintained.

    This generates more business for all of us, gives us a better public face and ultimately leads to a better trade for all of us to work within.


    Please don't take offense at this. My comments are in no way directed towards you specifically, but to the trade in general.

    The only constant in the world is change. Deal with it or be overcome by it. Those are the choices. Many in this trade have been overcome.

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