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  1. #40
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
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    2,190
    Consider that the extra insulation can hit the diminishing return thing but the SEALING PART is the area that really needs to be addressed. THink you should have a blower door test to 'benshmark" your infiltration as the first step
    You have got to learn from other people's mistakes! Because God knows you don't live long enough to make them all yourself !!!!!!!!

  2. #41
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by genduct View Post
    Consider that the extra insulation can hit the diminishing return thing but the SEALING PART is the area that really needs to be addressed. THink you should have a blower door test to 'benshmark" your infiltration as the first step
    Will have to find out who in my area can do the blower door test, would be interesting to see the results. Thanks.

  3. #42
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    SW Wisconsin
    Posts
    4,897

    OIL FURNACES REQUIRE MORE MAINTENANCE THAN PROPANE...

    Never oversize an oil furnace as the increased frequency of short run-time cycles will cause excessive carbon buildup, reducing efficienies...

    Some of the reasons I prefer Propane to oil furnaces is the lower maintenance work & costs to keep them operating efficiently.

    An oil heater needs longer runtime cycles to reach a high enough operating temperature to effectively burn the carbon molecules. In addition, the nozzle ought to be sized within 10% of the rated capacity requirements of the refractory so its white-hot surface can reflect the right amount of heat to effect the burning of carbon.

    At an oil burner startup, the combustion process is poor & unburned carbon flows through the heat exchanger. For the first 90 seconds until the refractory (combustion chamber) comes up to temperature soot is deposited everywhere.

    This is another reason why you need to keep all the oil filters & pump screen/strainers clean, especially the one inside the pump’s housing, changed out & kept clean for an optimal adequately hot efficient refractory fire.

    The above is also, why I like the Temperature SWING Settings of some programmable room thermostats so you can increase the cycle runtime lengths & increase runtime per cycle, for better efficiency & longer higher performance of oil heating equipment.

    The above will only work with properly sized equipment; also I like the idea of under-sizing the oil furnace & using electric backup heat for those few times the oil furnace may not keep up...

    Additionally, oil furnaces often have reduced airflow problems that lead to inefficient operation & inadequate delivery of airflow to all of the rooms. Think about the design differences between oil furnaces & propane or natural gas furnaces &, restricted airflow through the evaporator coil.

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,247

    WHERE to START is

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutismax View Post
    Will have to find out who in my area can do the blower door test, would be interesting to see the results. Thanks.

    ... your local utility.

    Energy audit should include a blower door test.
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,247

    Measure in ( common terms ) Therms: 100,000 BTUs

    Quote Originally Posted by meplumber View Post
    Dan. We just went through this argument with some kid over in one of the other forums. Electric heat doesn't work in cold climates. Period. Exclamation Point. I don't care what your numbers tell you. I made too many conversions from electric back to oil in the late 80's after the oil embargo drove people to electric. It cost them a fortune and they were never comfortable. You can't give electric heat away up here.

    LP/Heat Pump dual fuel will give you a great combination of comfort and affordability. Even oil is more efficient than electric in cold climates. As beenthere just said, the electric is never satisfied, it has to run almost constantly. The oil will make temp and shut off for periods of time.
    BTUS = the Common Currency .!..!!

    My 800 watts works well to the low/mid 50's and 1,500 watts is adequate to 45'F.
    Keeps the heat pump from having to (short) cycle.
    ~ 900 Square feet / rental in Upstate S.C.
    Very Rare to go < 30'F, so heat pump is Much More than Adequate.
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Coastal Maine
    Posts
    811
    Quote Originally Posted by dan sw fl View Post
    BTUS = the Common Currency .!..!!

    My 800 watts works well to the low/mid 50's and 1,500 watts is adequate to 45'F.
    Keeps the heat pump from having to (short) cycle.
    ~ 900 Square feet / rental in Upstate S.C.
    Very Rare to go < 30'F, so heat pump is Much More than Adequate.
    I don't disagree that it works in the South. I and others have frequently tried to tell people that electric and heat pump only systems do not work well in the Great White North. They help, don't get me wrong, but they MUST be supplemented by fossil fuel heat during mid winter. Our design temp here is -10. This winter, we had 11 days where we saw consistent temps below design. Heat pumps frost over when the outside enthalpy is below 7 btu/lb. I just feel the need to remind folks that what works in Florida or South Carolina doesn't always work in Maine or Michigan or Minnesota. The OP is in Youngstown, Ohio not too far from Lake Erie. Their design temp is down around 0* F. When it is 0* outside, the heat pump doesn't cut it and the electric strip heat runs constantly.

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,247
    Quote Originally Posted by meplumber View Post
    I don't disagree that it works in the South.
    I and others have frequently tried to tell people that electric
    and heat pump only systems do not work well in the Great White North.

    They help, don't get me wrong, but they MUST be supplemented by fossil fuel heat during mid winter.
    Heat pumps frost over when the outside enthalpy is below 7 btu/lb.

    I just feel the need to remind folks that what works in Florida or South Carolina doesn't always work in Maine or Michigan or Minnesota. The OP is in Youngstown, Ohio not too far from Lake Erie. Their design temp is down around 0* F. When it is 0* outside, the heat pump doesn't cut it and the electric strip heat runs constantly.
    Are there ANY air source heat pumps in Canada?
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Coastal Maine
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    811
    Quote Originally Posted by dan sw fl View Post
    Are there ANY air source heat pumps in Canada?
    I am sure there are. Especially in Vancouver. We use them up here in Maine, we just have to supplement them with fossil fuel heat. 10 years ago, we did 99% hydronic heat in small commercial and small institutional. Now we are doing a lot of Dual Fuel packages in those <5,000 sq ft buildings.

    Heat pumps are moving into that shoulder season market, especially with oil as high as it is. The binding factor for heat pumps is the magic 7 Btu/lb enthalpy number. Below that, a traditional reversed refrigeration heat pump won't produce. The mini split manufacturers are doing some pretty neat stuff to push the limits of that number, but when a 2,000 sq ft house needs 80 - 90,000 btu's to make temp mid winter, it would require a massive heat pump to do that. That would mean installing a 7.5 ton heat pump on a house that only has a cooling load of 2.5 or 3 ton.

    The cost benefit just isn't there when you factor in the increased equipment cost. If you couple that 3 ton heat pump with a modulating furnace, then the cost benefit starts to make sense.

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by meplumber View Post
    I am sure there are. Especially in Vancouver. We use them up here in Maine, we just have to supplement them with fossil fuel heat. 10 years ago, we did 99% hydronic heat in small commercial and small institutional. Now we are doing a lot of Dual Fuel packages in those <5,000 sq ft buildings.

    Heat pumps are moving into that shoulder season market, especially with oil as high as it is. The binding factor for heat pumps is the magic 7 Btu/lb enthalpy number.

    Below that, a traditional reversed refrigeration heat pump won't produce.


    but when a 2,000 sq ft house needs 80 - 90,000 btu's to make temp mid winter, it would require a massive heat pump to do that.
    That would mean installing a 7.5 ton heat pump on a house that only has a cooling load of 2.5 or 3 ton. .
    How would one build a 2,000 Sq Ft house in the last 2 or 3 decades that actually requires > 50,000 BTU/hr at -10'F?

    Other than leaving the windows open.
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  10. #49
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Coastal Maine
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    811
    Quote Originally Posted by dan sw fl View Post
    How would one build a 2,000 Sq Ft house in the last 2 or 3 decades that actually requires > 50,000 BTU/hr at -10'F?

    Other than leaving the windows open.
    The average new construction heat loss average is 18-20 Btu/hr at -10*F. That is even for a "green" tight house. Old houses average 45-50 Btu/hr heat loss. Those numbers are obtained using heat loss/heat gain software.

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
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    6,247
    Quote Originally Posted by meplumber View Post
    The average new construction heat loss average is 18-20 Btu/hr at -10*F. That is even for a "green" tight house. Old houses average 45-50 Btu/hr heat loss. Those numbers are obtained using heat loss/heat gain software.
    What are the heat losses for a new well built 2,000 SF residence based on ACTUAL energy consumption?
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  12. #51
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,247
    SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL ELECTRIC UTILITY
    http://www.ontario-hydro.com/index.p...es_by_province
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  13. #52
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Coastal Maine
    Posts
    811
    Quote Originally Posted by meplumber View Post
    The average new construction heat loss average is 18-20 Btu/hr at -10*F. That is even for a "green" tight house. Old houses average 45-50 Btu/hr heat loss. Those numbers are obtained using heat loss/heat gain software.
    Sorry. These numbers are per square foot.

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