Oil to propane worth it?

[Brutismax]

I have a 82.7% oil furnace with a .70 nozzle and 2 ton hp system. We run the hp until 30f outside, use approx. 400 gallons of oil a season. We live in ne ohio the house was built in the late 60's about 1800 sf ranch. Fuel oil has been running about $4 a gallon and propane $2.17. Was wondering if anyone else has switched and what their results were or if it is worth it to go to a 95% propane 2 stage or mod. furnace. Thanks.

[beenthere]

At the rates you posted, you could reduce your heating bill by about 450 bucks a year. If you buy your own tank.

[skippedover]

Using the current costs of oil and LP gas in your area is the first step toward realizing a savings. However, you must also subsequently try to forecast the future price of both fuels. That's a little more difficult but history could be a reasonable indicator of what to expect. In our area, for example, the difference between oil #2 and LP gas is only a few cents per gallon. In your area it's more substantial. One method of couching your exposure to radical, unexpected price increases, would be to install a gas conversion burner rather than an entire new furnace. With a properly sized conversion burner, your oil furnace could continue to operate, while allowing you to keep the old oil burner and if costs dictated a conversion back to oil, it's then just a matter of swapping the burner and attaching the old oil line. Your energy efficiency for the converted unit should be about equivalent to what it is with oil.

All that being said, there are many more comfort options available with gas units than with oil. Modulating or staged furnaces (I'm now speaking about forced air units as the 'furnace', not a water boiler) with variable speed ECM motors will both improve home comfort (when properly sized by Manual 'D') as well as lower both the operating costs by use of LP gas at your area prices as well as lower your electrical consumption year 'round when using the furnace blower for cooling in the summer.

When armed with the knowledge of the various options, the ultimate decision is up to you. There is no 'pat' or 'stock' answer as the only opinion that matters is yours alone.

[beenthere]

Using the current costs of oil and LP gas in your area is the first step toward realizing a savings. However, you must also subsequently try to forecast the future price of both fuels. That's a little more difficult but history could be a reasonable indicator of what to expect. In our area, for example, the difference between oil #2 and LP gas is only a few cents per gallon. In your area it's more substantial. One method of couching your exposure to radical, unexpected price increases, would be to install a gas conversion burner rather than an entire new furnace. With a properly sized conversion burner, your oil furnace could continue to operate, while allowing you to keep the old oil burner and if costs dictated a conversion back to oil, it's then just a matter of swapping the burner and attaching the old oil line. Your energy efficiency for the converted unit should be about equivalent to what it is with oil.

All that being said, there are many more comfort options available with gas units than with oil. Modulating or staged furnaces (I'm now speaking about forced air units as the 'furnace', not a water boiler) with variable speed ECM motors will both improve home comfort (when properly sized by Manual 'D') as well as lower both the operating costs by use of LP gas at your area prices as well as lower your electrical consumption year 'round when using the furnace blower for cooling in the summer.

When armed with the knowledge of the various options, the ultimate decision is up to you. There is no 'pat' or 'stock' answer as the only opinion that matters is yours alone.

A conversion burner wouldn't be anymore efficient then his current oil burner, and would take much longer to pay back since any savings would come from price difference only.

[skippedover]

A conversion burner wouldn't be anymore efficient then his current oil burner, and would take much longer to pay back since any savings would come from price difference only.

I didn't say it would be more efficient but the cost of fuel is 1/2 and that in and of itself is a savings. 80% of $4.00 is $3.20 of useful fuel. 80% of $2.17 is $1.74 of useful fuel. Thus 400 gallons of LP gas would cost him $868, while oil would be $1,600. And the cost of a conversion burner is likely substantially less than the cost of a new high efficiency gas unit. So in reality, he could see a quicker payback with a conversion burner than with a new furnace. But that doesn't address any utility rebates, federal tax credits or any other incentives being offered for replacing the furnace with a new gas furnace. So as I stated, the only opinion that matter is his, once he's armed with the facts.

[beenthere]

I didn't say it would be more efficient but the cost of fuel is 1/2 and that in and of itself is a savings. 80% of $4.00 is $3.20 of useful fuel. 80% of $2.17 is $1.74 of useful fuel. Thus 400 gallons of LP gas would cost him $868, while oil would be $1,600. And the cost of a conversion burner is likely substantially less than the cost of a new high efficiency gas unit. So in reality, he could see a quicker payback with a conversion burner than with a new furnace. But that doesn't address any utility rebates, federal tax credits or any other incentives being offered for replacing the furnace with a new gas furnace. So as I stated, the only opinion that matter is his, once he's armed with the facts.

Except using a conversion burner, it wouldn't only be 400 gallons of propane. It would be 608 gallons(propane has less BTUs per gallon then oil). So it would cost $1,320.87, Long payback time.

[Brutismax]

Thanks for the replies. Looks like the biggest variable is what happens with the fuel costs, oil is terrible, my sister has propane and said while it has gone up and down it hasn't been as bad as oil. Another question is about the furnaces, the mod ones sound great for comfort and fuel costs, but are they over complicated or more trouble than say a 2 stage unit? Sometimes more technology=more headaches than something simple or is that not the case?

[beenthere]

Most manufacturers have had the mods out for a while now. And pretty much have the bugs worked out of them. So they aren't more prone to break downs.

[dan sw fl]

Alternative -
1. Check infiltration to assure < 0.5 Air Change per Hour
2. Check and upgrade ducts to 1,050 CFM capability
3. Install new high end 3-ton heat pump - thermal balance point would be ~23'F

3-ton heat pump with 3 kW heat strip, the House- Heat pump total electric SYSTEM would be adequate down to 15'F.
Oil use at temperatures < 15'F ought to be < 100 gallons.



Propane at $2.17 / gallon, 90% efficient is $2.54 / 100,000 BTU/Hr ( therm)
Electric at $0.10/ kw-hr down to ~20'F would be $1.25 / therm or half of propane.

[dan sw fl]

NE Ohio vicinity
http://www.wunderground.com/history/...q_statename=NA

Akron
About 35 days < 21'F at 10 hours per day about 300 hours

Oil use ought to be < 0.4 gallon per hour (~ 40,000 BTU/HR delivered)
for < 250 hours at < 15'F per season.

CHECK

[Brutismax]

By high end you mean higher seer? With only 3kw heat strip would the hp run with it down to 15? Will have to figure out the duct capability prob have someone look at it, the furnace now has a 1400 cfm blower but that doesn't mean the ducts are up to it. Thanks.

[beenthere]

Alternative -
1. Check infiltration to assure < 0.5 Air Change per Hour
2. Check and upgrade ducts to 1,050 CFM capability
3. Install new high end 3-ton heat pump - thermal balance point would be ~23'F

3-ton heat pump with 3 kW heat strip, the House- Heat pump total electric SYSTEM would be adequate down to 15'F.
Oil use at temperatures < 15'F ought to be < 100 gallons.



Propane at $2.17 / gallon, 90% efficient is $2.54 / 100,000 BTU/Hr ( therm)
Electric at $0.10/ kw-hr down to ~20'F would be $1.25 / therm or half of propane.

The control and wiring to use both electric aux and oil aux is far beyond many techs.

[Brutismax]

I checked the model no of my heat pump(2HP13B30P-1B) it's a 2.5 ton 13 seer system, had it installed about 6-7 years ago. Would adding a certain size heat strip to my current setup save any heat costs? Or does the hp have to be one of the higher efficient models to see the savings? Thanks.

[beenthere]

Whats your electric rate.

[dan sw fl]

I checked the model no of my heat pump(2HP13B30P-1B) it's a 2.5 ton 13 seer system, had it installed about 6-7 years ago. Would adding a certain size heat strip to my current setup save any heat costs? Or does the hp have to be one of the higher efficient models to see the savings? Thanks.

http://www.aireflo-hvac.com/products...HP13_49612.pdf
I can adjust Thermal Balance Point Chart to this Aire-Flo information.

Have you ever had the switchover point set to less than 30'F?

To perform an accurate economic analysis I would need temperature bin data for your locale.
It's a bit of an effort to derive this data from the Weather Channel information on daily high/lows.
What is a 'major' city that is close ( 40 miles or so)?

[Brutismax]

Latest electric bill says 2618kwh used bill is 175.83 so .067? Never set switchover to less than 30f, installer said thats where to set it, I never tried thinking the electric would go way up and it wouldn't put out enough heat. I am willing to try if you think it would be ok. We are about 10 miles north of Youngstown and a little east of Warren, zip is 44473 if that helps. Thank you to everyone for the help.

[meplumber]

Your heating design temp for Youngstown, Ohio is 4* F. I wouldn't try electric strip heat. The electrical consumption of the heat strips when it is 0* F outside will not make you a happy camper, plus you will most likely not be comfortable (just my opinion, based on experience in cold climates.)

As beenthere and skippedover have stated, a conversion to LP can save you money if LP prices stay fairly stable. The real savings with gas equipment is in the ability to modulate the flame to meet the demands of the building. But as stated, there is no cut and dry answer. All I will say is that 10 years ago, we installed probably 85% oil fired equipment. Now we install probably 95% LP fired equipment.

Good Luck.

[dan sw fl]

Latest electric bill says 2618kwh used bill is 175.83 so .067?

Never set switchover to less than 30f, installer said thats where to set it,
I never tried thinking the electric would go way up and it wouldn't put out enough heat.

I am willing to try if you think it would be ok.

We are about 10 miles north of Youngstown and a little east of Warren, zip is 44473 if that helps.
Thank you to everyone for the help.

As Beenthere stated in post # 12, control of electric and LP AUX is HIGHLY dependent of the skill of the local tech.

$ 0.067 / kW is definitely a beneficially rate.
LP Gas is nearly 3 X cost of heat pump at 20'F
________ 35% more cost than straight electric.

I find these ratios to be somewhat unrealistic and need to re-check.
BUT, one must know that $0.067 /kW is about 60% of the national U.S. average

100,000 / 3412 BTU per Hr/ kW
29.31 ___ kw/ Therm
$0.067 ___ / kW
$1.964 ___ Therm Electric

$2.17 ___ PER GAL.
0.86 ___ Efficiency
$2.52
95,000__ BTU / Gal
1.053
$2.66 __ Therm LP
135.3% __ LP/ elec.

2.12 __ COP
$0.926 __ Electric Equiv. Heat Pump
287%

[Brutismax]

So would having a 5kw heat strip added to my 2.5 ton hp give about the same results as the 3 ton with the 3kw you suggested and be efficient down to 15f ? My tstat is a honeywell 8320 says it will do 3h/2c .

[dan sw fl]

So would having a 5kw heat strip added to my 2.5 ton hp give about the same results as the 3 ton with the 3kw you suggested and be efficient down to 15F ? My tstat is a honeywell 8320 says it will do 3h/2c .

You can have the heat pump run to 12 to 18'F range with a 5 kW or 3 kW heat strip.
Your locale seems to experience a huge amount of hours at less than 20'F.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/...q_statename=NA
I can see a heat pump running nearly continuous for ~1,600 hours / 10 weeks ( when < 34'F)

ATTACHMENT: Balance Point with 2.5 and 3 ton Heat Pumps.

I have not performed Heat Loss calc.
Heat Loss in graph is based on stated use of 2.5-ton heat pump to 30'F.

Based on a lengthy review of temperature data and setting up an approximate temperature bin,
I anticipate Oil use should be reduced to ~150 gallons if you set a switchover to about 16'F.

You need a tech quite conversant in Controls to set-up both an electric strip and
oil furnace as AN AUX Heat/ Heat Pump operation + really a DUAL FUEL SYSTEM.