Oil to propane worth it? - Page 2
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  1. #14
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    Lancaster PA
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    Whats your electric rate.
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    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  2. #15
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    Nov 2004
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    SW FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutismax View Post
    I checked the model no of my heat pump(2HP13B30P-1B) it's a 2.5 ton 13 seer system, had it installed about 6-7 years ago. Would adding a certain size heat strip to my current setup save any heat costs? Or does the hp have to be one of the higher efficient models to see the savings? Thanks.
    http://www.aireflo-hvac.com/products...HP13_49612.pdf
    I can adjust Thermal Balance Point Chart to this Aire-Flo information.

    Have you ever had the switchover point set to less than 30'F?

    To perform an accurate economic analysis I would need temperature bin data for your locale.
    It's a bit of an effort to derive this data from the Weather Channel information on daily high/lows.
    What is a 'major' city that is close ( 40 miles or so)?
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  3. #16
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    Mar 2013
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    Latest electric bill says 2618kwh used bill is 175.83 so .067? Never set switchover to less than 30f, installer said thats where to set it, I never tried thinking the electric would go way up and it wouldn't put out enough heat. I am willing to try if you think it would be ok. We are about 10 miles north of Youngstown and a little east of Warren, zip is 44473 if that helps. Thank you to everyone for the help.

  4. #17
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    Apr 2011
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    Coastal Maine
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    797
    Your heating design temp for Youngstown, Ohio is 4* F. I wouldn't try electric strip heat. The electrical consumption of the heat strips when it is 0* F outside will not make you a happy camper, plus you will most likely not be comfortable (just my opinion, based on experience in cold climates.)

    As beenthere and skippedover have stated, a conversion to LP can save you money if LP prices stay fairly stable. The real savings with gas equipment is in the ability to modulate the flame to meet the demands of the building. But as stated, there is no cut and dry answer. All I will say is that 10 years ago, we installed probably 85% oil fired equipment. Now we install probably 95% LP fired equipment.

    Good Luck.

  5. #18
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    Nov 2004
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    SW FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutismax View Post
    Latest electric bill says 2618kwh used bill is 175.83 so .067?

    Never set switchover to less than 30f, installer said thats where to set it,
    I never tried thinking the electric would go way up and it wouldn't put out enough heat.

    I am willing to try if you think it would be ok.

    We are about 10 miles north of Youngstown and a little east of Warren, zip is 44473 if that helps.
    Thank you to everyone for the help.
    As Beenthere stated in post # 12, control of electric and LP AUX is HIGHLY dependent of the skill of the local tech.

    $ 0.067 / kW is definitely a beneficially rate.
    LP Gas is nearly 3 X cost of heat pump at 20'F
    ________ 35% more cost than straight electric.

    I find these ratios to be somewhat unrealistic and need to re-check.
    BUT, one must know that $0.067 /kW is about 60% of the national U.S. average

    100,000 / 3412 BTU per Hr/ kW
    29.31 ___ kw/ Therm
    $0.067 ___ / kW
    $1.964 ___ Therm Electric

    $2.17 ___ PER GAL.
    0.86 ___ Efficiency
    $2.52
    95,000__ BTU / Gal
    1.053
    $2.66 __ Therm LP
    135.3% __ LP/ elec.

    2.12 __ COP
    $0.926 __ Electric Equiv. Heat Pump
    287%
    Last edited by dan sw fl; 03-04-2013 at 10:41 PM.
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  6. #19
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    Mar 2013
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    14
    So would having a 5kw heat strip added to my 2.5 ton hp give about the same results as the 3 ton with the 3kw you suggested and be efficient down to 15f ? My tstat is a honeywell 8320 says it will do 3h/2c .

  7. #20
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    SW FL
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    Thumbs up Reducing oil use

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutismax View Post
    So would having a 5kw heat strip added to my 2.5 ton hp give about the same results as the 3 ton with the 3kw you suggested and be efficient down to 15F ? My tstat is a honeywell 8320 says it will do 3h/2c .
    You can have the heat pump run to 12 to 18'F range with a 5 kW or 3 kW heat strip.
    Your locale seems to experience a huge amount of hours at less than 20'F.

    http://www.wunderground.com/history/...q_statename=NA
    I can see a heat pump running nearly continuous for ~1,600 hours / 10 weeks ( when < 34'F)

    ATTACHMENT: Balance Point with 2.5 and 3 ton Heat Pumps.

    I have not performed Heat Loss calc.
    Heat Loss in graph is based on stated use of 2.5-ton heat pump to 30'F.

    Based on a lengthy review of temperature data and setting up an approximate temperature bin,
    I anticipate Oil use should be reduced to ~150 gallons if you set a switchover to about 16'F.

    You need a tech quite conversant in Controls to set-up both an electric strip and
    oil furnace as AN AUX Heat/ Heat Pump operation + really a DUAL FUEL SYSTEM.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  8. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan sw fl View Post
    You can have the heat pump run to 12 to 18'F range with a 5 kW or 3 kW heat strip.
    Your locale seems to experience a huge amount of hours at less than 20'F.

    http://www.wunderground.com/history/...q_statename=NA
    I can see a heat pump running nearly continuous for ~1,600 hours / 10 weeks ( when < 34'F)

    ATTACHMENT: Balance Point with 2.5 and 3 ton Heat Pumps.

    I have not performed Heat Loss calc.
    Heat Loss in graph is based on stated use of 2.5-ton heat pump to 30'F.

    Based on a lengthy review of temperature data and setting up an approximate temperature bin,
    I anticipate Oil use should be reduced to ~150 gallons if you set a switchover to about 16'F.

    You need a tech quite conversant in Controls to set-up both an electric strip and
    oil furnace as AN AUX Heat/ Heat Pump operation + really a DUAL FUEL SYSTEM.
    Running the heat pump and a 5 KW aux heater at $0.10 per KWH, will probably cost more then using his oil heat at $4.00 a gallon(based on 80% efficiency)when the outdoor temps are below 20.

    Need to plot a economical balance point graph.
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  9. #22
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    Mar 2013
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    How about getting the 95% 2 stage variable speed propane furnace and having the heat strip installed at the same time. The oil furnace is atleast 15 years old. The variable speed blower seems like it would help with savings and comfort. Want to have a plan before I get estimates and can ask about the 3 stage deal when I call. Something needs done $1600+ for heat sucks.

  10. #23
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    I wouldn't bother with adding any aux strip heat. Just dual fuel. You could have a hard enough time finding a company that can set up a dual fuel right.
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  11. #24
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    Nov 2004
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    SW FL
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    Fuel Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    Running the heat pump and a 5 KW aux heater at $0.10 per KWH, will probably cost more then using his oil heat at $4.00 a gallon(based on 80% efficiency)when the outdoor temps are below 20.

    Need to plot a economical balance point graph.

    $4.00 ………….. per gallon
    139000 ………….. BTU/ gal
    0.80 ………….. efficiency
    111200 ………….. New BTU
    1.112 ………….. Therm /Gal
    $3.60 ………….. per therm Oil
    …………..
    $0.100 ………….. per kw
    100000 ………….. BTU/ Therm
    3412 ………….. BTU/ KW
    29.308 ………….. kW/ therm
    $2.93 ………….. per therm Straight Electric
    2.50 ………….. COP at 17'F
    $1.17 ………….. per therm Heat Pump
    307% ………….. Oil = 3.1 X Heat Pump at $0.10 /kW
    …………..
    $0.067 ………….. per kw
    $1.96 ………….. per therm Straight Electric
    183.5% ………….. Oil = 1.8 X straight electric at $0.067/kw
    .............................
    $2.17 ………….. per gallon LP
    95000 ………….. BTU/ gal
    0.80 ………….. efficiency
    76000 ………….. New BTU
    0.76 ………….. Therm /Gal
    $2.86 ………….. per therm LP
    97.4% ………….. LP = 1.0 X straight electric at $0.10 / kW
    _____ ________ LP = 1.46 x Straight Electric at $0.067 /kW
    243.6% ………….. LP = 2.4 X Heat Pump
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  12. #25
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    When the heat pump and 5 KW of strip are running 24/7 they will cost more then the oil which will shut off and have times of no oil consumption. Plus the heat pumps defrost periods
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  13. #26
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    Coastal Maine
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    Dan. We just went through this argument with some kid over in one of the other forums. Electric heat doesn't work in cold climates. Period. Exclamation Point. I don't care what your numbers tell you. I made too many conversions from electric back to oil in the late 80's after the oil embargo drove people to electric. It cost them a fortune and they were never comfortable. You can't give electric heat away up here.

    LP/Heat Pump dual fuel will give you a great combination of comfort and affordability. Even oil is more efficient than electric in cold climates. As beenthere just said, the electric is never satisfied, it has to run almost constantly. The oil will make temp and shut off for periods of time.

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