Dusty house problem

[CarolinaDawn]

Hi Leeannwc,
I found your thread online when searching for answers to my horrible dust problem. I have done many of the things that you have done and still have an enormous amount of dust accumulation as well. I was just wondering if you ever found a solution to your problem? Would love to hear from you. Thanks!

[jpsmith1cm]

CarolinaDawn.

I started a new thread for you.

[energy_rater_La]

so what is your dusty house problem carolinadawn?

[CarolinaDawn]

We purchased a bank owned mold problem home in 2007. Finally have gotten the mold taken care of properly. Have an air quality expert involved who said mold is all but gone, however the first level of our home has a very high level of dust particulate. A level "4" on his scale. The top floor and basement improved after his remediation. He said he comes across a home like ours only about once every 2 years. He had the dust tested and it showed 45 % skin cells (which is typical), and 35% cellulose fibers. Other minor parts of the dust were 5% starch, 2% synthetic, 5% "amorphous" or unidentifiable, which somewhat concerns me. No concerns related to outdoor environment or pets.

Our air expert recommended we rip up our living room carpet and replace the subfloor which is a cellulose looking material that just basically flakes apart. It is not typically used for floors, but more often as wall insulation. This is the only room that has it. We had concerns about it too which is why before we moved in we very thickly coated it with a KILZ type primer. There were some animal smells as well that we wanted to cover up. I really have a hard time believing that this HEAVILY painted (soaked with paint) subfloor is creating this horrible amount of dust. I am able to write in the dust twice daily.

My concern is that the fibers in the dust are actually coming more from the insulation in our walls!!! My next step is to try to seal the area where the ducts meet the walls due to possibility there are gaps allowing dust to enter rooms from insulation inside the walls. I have seen that our walls have the same soft boards that our living room floor does. Not sure what other solutions there are for when the cellulose insulation in the walls is creating massive amounts of dust???? Anyone else have experience with this?

I am very exhausted from all of this. My allergies are going crazy and I have considered moving multiple times. However we love our home, neighborhood, mortgage payment, etc. The dust barely bothers my husband at all so needless to say he is not as motivated to fix the "problem." We have had ducts cleaned various methods 4 times since 2007, we have had multiple different filters (ionizing ones irritated me as well so now we have an AprilAire and it is ok but filter needs changed monthly and is expensive), we tried a UV light which is still on our furnace but we do not use, used it when mold was more of a problem, we have checked the dryer vent connection and it seems fine (though I do wonder if fibers are coming out other openings in the dryer so I duct taped them) it is also a very cheap dryer. My concern is that the dust is clearly a dark blue looking material with obvious s-shaped fibers of various colors which would make me thing the laundry but the dust sample showed this was a low %. Some of it can appear whitish gray with almost rough sand like particles however. We have small room air purifiers and vacuum as often as possible as well. Any help would be tremendously appreciated! Thanks!

[CarolinaDawn]

Also wanted to mention we recently had the basement "waterproofed" (more like a water redirection system, ha!) so the water is not really an issue anymore and mold should no longer be a problem.

[GT Jets]

We purchased a bank owned mold problem home in 2007. Finally have gotten the mold taken care of properly. Have an air quality expert involved who said mold is all but gone, however the first level of our home has a very high level of dust particulate. A level "4" on his scale. The top floor and basement improved after his remediation. He said he comes across a home like ours only about once every 2 years. He had the dust tested and it showed 45 % skin cells (which is typical), and 35% cellulose fibers. Other minor parts of the dust were 5% starch, 2% synthetic, 5% "amorphous" or unidentifiable, which somewhat concerns me. No concerns related to outdoor environment or pets.

Our air expert recommended we rip up our living room carpet and replace the subfloor which is a cellulose looking material that just basically flakes apart. It is not typically used for floors, but more often as wall insulation. This is the only room that has it. We had concerns about it too which is why before we moved in we very thickly coated it with a KILZ type primer. There were some animal smells as well that we wanted to cover up. I really have a hard time believing that this HEAVILY painted (soaked with paint) subfloor is creating this horrible amount of dust. I am able to write in the dust twice daily.

My concern is that the fibers in the dust are actually coming more from the insulation in our walls!!! My next step is to try to seal the area where the ducts meet the walls due to possibility there are gaps allowing dust to enter rooms from insulation inside the walls. I have seen that our walls have the same soft boards that our living room floor does. Not sure what other solutions there are for when the cellulose insulation in the walls is creating massive amounts of dust???? Anyone else have experience with this?

I am very exhausted from all of this. My allergies are going crazy and I have considered moving multiple times. However we love our home, neighborhood, mortgage payment, etc. The dust barely bothers my husband at all so needless to say he is not as motivated to fix the "problem." We have had ducts cleaned various methods 4 times since 2007, we have had multiple different filters (ionizing ones irritated me as well so now we have an AprilAire and it is ok but filter needs changed monthly and is expensive), we tried a UV light which is still on our furnace but we do not use, used it when mold was more of a problem, we have checked the dryer vent connection and it seems fine (though I do wonder if fibers are coming out other openings in the dryer so I duct taped them) it is also a very cheap dryer. My concern is that the dust is clearly a dark blue looking material with obvious s-shaped fibers of various colors which would make me thing the laundry but the dust sample showed this was a low %. Some of it can appear whitish gray with almost rough sand like particles however. We have small room air purifiers and vacuum as often as possible as well. Any help would be tremendously appreciated! Thanks!

I have seen this sort of thing before (though I never went as far as having a hygienist look into it).

What I did find was there was a large duct leak in the attic of the building (which was previously a house now being used as a chiropractics office) causing unfiltered air to be pulled in from outdoors. I would doubt seriously that that dust could have been half skin cells, but it is something worth looking into.

Have you had the duct work inspected? Does the heat/AC even have to be running to produce the dust?

I am curious as to what they find. Good luck

[teddy bear]

. He said he comes across a home like ours only about once every 2 years. He had the dust tested and it showed 45 % skin cells (which is typical), and 35% cellulose fibers. Other minor parts of the dust were 5% starch, 2% synthetic, 5% "amorphous" or unidentifiable, which somewhat concerns me. No concerns related to outdoor environment or pets.

Our air expert recommended we rip up our living room carpet and replace the subfloor which is a cellulose looking material that just basically flakes apart. It is not typically used for floors, but more often as wall insulation. This is the only room that has it. We had concerns about it too which is why before we moved in we very thickly coated it with a KILZ type primer. There were some animal smells as well that we wanted to cover up. I really have a hard time believing that this HEAVILY painted (soaked with paint) subfloor is creating this horrible amount of dust. I am able to write in the dust twice daily.

My concern is that the fibers in the dust are actually coming more from the insulation in our walls!!! My next step is to try to seal the area where the ducts meet the walls due to possibility there are gaps allowing dust to enter rooms from insulation inside the walls. I have seen that our walls have the same soft boards that our living room floor does. Not sure what other solutions there are for when the cellulose insulation in the walls is creating massive amounts of dust???? Anyone else have experience with this?

I am very exhausted from all of this. My allergies are going crazy and I have considered moving multiple times. However we love our home, neighborhood, mortgage payment, etc. The dust barely bothers my husband at all so needless to say he is not as motivated to fix the "problem." We have had ducts cleaned various methods 4 times since 2007, we have had multiple different filters (ionizing ones irritated me as well so now we have an AprilAire and it is ok but filter needs changed monthly and is expensive), we tried a UV light which is still on our furnace but we do not use, used it when mold was more of a problem, we have checked the dryer vent connection and it seems fine (though I do wonder if fibers are coming out other openings in the dryer so I duct taped them) it is also a very cheap dryer. My concern is that the dust is clearly a dark blue looking material with obvious s-shaped fibers of various colors which would make me thing the laundry but the dust sample showed this was a low %. Some of it can appear whitish gray with almost rough sand like particles however. We have small room air purifiers and vacuum as often as possible as well. Any help would be tremendously appreciated! Thanks!

Dust is everywhere. The wind blows and dust moves. Dust enters you home on clothes and through air leaks. Most of the dust settles to the horizontal surfaces. The vacuum cleaner and the air filter remove the most of the dust from our homes. Most dust will not affect occupants if it is kept dry. High humidity activates the ever present mold spores which is part of the dust make-up. Important to aviod +50%RH or moisture condensation of cool surface during cold weather.
Do you have a ultra sonic humidifier or moisture atomizer which can add silicone particulate to the air?
How are you keeping your home dry? Are you adding filtered fresh air to your home?
Regards TB

[energy_rater_La]

I'm not going to repost the whole original post, but just ask questions
that will give us more information.

where in the house do you have cellulose insulation?
in the walls? attic?
has anyone verified what type of insulation you have in the walls?
are the walls & ceilings sheetrock or some other material?
where are the ducts located? attic crawlspace or basement?
where are supply ducts located? walls ceilings floor?
what type of ducts do you have, flex or hard pipe?
where is/are the return air(s) located?
do you have recessed lights?
fireplace?

what was cause of mold?
how was it remediated?
how long ago was this done & have there been any issues
with mold since then?

I'm not real familiar with basements, so walk me through..
is the first floor of the house over just basement or is there
an area that is over a crawlspace?
what type of furnace & where is it located?

there has to be a pathway for air to move into the living space.
as this air moves, it picks up particulate matter. this would
be the 'dust'.

In 'dusty' houses I've worked on, the focus is on air sealing.
to find the areas to air seal..you get a blower door test.
this would be a house that would require more than a blow & go
test. because you want to 'see' where the infiltration sites are located.
rather than just what the leakage amount adds up to.

to verify leakage around baseboards you would have to feel these areas
while blower door is depressurizing the house.
same for ceiling moldings, around outlets & switches, bath fan covers
recessed lights etc.

air leakage at floor is caused by sole plate of wall not being sealed to subfloor.
I would suspect this more than the subfloor itself.
by depressurizing the house with the blower door, the leaks are exaggerated,
so that they are easy to find. once you find the leakage, you then have to
decide what to seal the leaks with.

products like caulk work well because they expand & contract.
but they have to be carefully applied, and then checked once caulk dries.
mastic is best seal for duct & return air sealing.
cans of foam come last on my list due to lack of control of
product, and shrinkage of foam.

with more info we can understand better what is going
on in your home. sorry that you are having these issues.

best of luck.

[CarolinaDawn]

Thank you for your advice. You actually got me thinking about our horribly dusty attic. Our home is a cape cod style and the attic is accessible thru a bedroom and is at the side of the house but it is in dire need of a cleaning. I actually have never stepped IN to it except to carefully look around. There are ducts that go thru there as well as various pipes, bath vent etc. I have already contacted our air quality guy and we are going to consider this as our next step. Wish he would've suggested it himself tho after I showed it to him the first time. Thanks again for the tip! I am also going to have him inspect all the duct work as you suggested.

[CarolinaDawn]

Had been using dehumidifiers which helped greatly with the dust, mold, irritation, HOWEVER now that we have the water redirection system in the basement (water is allowed in through weep holes at bottom of walls and drained to a sump pump thru a french drain...well, the dehumidifiers seems to keep pulling all this water into the air making it musty smelling. When we turned them off, the system worked much better, however, then we have the higher RH...almost sure it is over 50%.

[CarolinaDawn]

energy rater la...thank you for all the info!!! I will need some time to go thru all that and will get back with you. I appreciate your help!

[teddy bear]

Had been using dehumidifiers which helped greatly with the dust, mold, irritation, HOWEVER now that we have the water redirection system in the basement (water is allowed in through weep holes at bottom of walls and drained to a sump pump thru a french drain...well, the dehumidifiers seems to keep pulling all this water into the air making it musty smelling. When we turned them off, the system worked much better, however, then we have the higher RH...almost sure it is over 50%.

It is critical to maintain <50%RH especially in cool basement/crawlspace spaces. Low %RH prevents the mold spore that are everywhere from growing. Not operating dehumidifiers because of the large amounts of moisture they remove from the air is not benefical. Filtered fresh air ventilation is also an important part of the indoor air quality you are trying to maintain in your home.

Regard TB

[CarolinaDawn]

thanks teddy bear. I guess it is hard to explain. The dehumidifiers are not only pulling moisture from the air at this point but are also pulling up all the moisture that is running thru our floors on its way to our sump pump. This is caused a horribly damp, dank feeling in the basement and since the water was not being allowed to go ahead and travel its intended path, the dehumidifiers hardly ever shut off even when I set them at 40%. I am not sure what to do about that. It smells so much better now, but I do worry about mold growth. It is a dilemma. The mold treatment should do its job. All surfaces have been treated and sealed with a mild antifungal that has a 10 yr warranty...if humidity kept below 50% tho :/

[CarolinaDawn]

thanks energy rater La...I will try to respond to all your questions. I appreciate your help.
We had the subfloor in our living room tested to rule out asbestos in it and it was safe, but was composed of a lot of cellulose. It is a type of particle board most often used to insulate walls I guess. I can see it is our walls as well. Our home was built in 1950 and has plaster walls and ceilings. Our ducts are in the walls that lead down to the basement where we have a forced air furnace. The go into the attic briefly for the two vents we have up there. Mostly hard ducts. One small line of flex duct that is newer and small area of insulated cardboard type product for cold air returns to two bedrooms which is also newer. We have return air ducts in both downstairs bedroom and in the living room which is the largest and most efficient one. No recessed lights or fireplace. The mold in the basement was from water intrusion. The basement was finished with drywall, carpet, ceiling and we had to rip it all out before we moved in. The home had set closed up for several months as well, which made the mold problem even worse. (at least we got a good deal on it, ha ha!) It was remediated for the 2nd time this past December 2012 by our air quality guy using a thyme based product to kill the mold and then with an application of a mold resistant sealant over every inch of the basement (mild safe antifungal but cannot recall the name of it.) Testing reveals no mold at all on first and second floors (which really did not have a huge mold issue to begin with per testing.) and basement current mold test reveals a very low amount of mold there. The basement is under the entire first floor, no crawlspace. I have noticed that when the furnace is on, I happened to be reaching up to check something and there are several areas along the basement ceiling where it meets the first floor subfloor and outside wall where I could feel cold air just streaming in from the outside. However, as I said, the basement does not have a high level of dust particulate at this time. Not sure if this outside entry of unfiltered fresh air would affect the overall dust problem though? The attic, which desperately needs a cleaning, may have had cellulose insulation blown in previously but the air quality guy said all he could see was some fiberglass insulation. I am seriously considering whether we need to get a water baseboard heating system as I have read that forced air heating systems are not recommended for those with allergies and asthma. Would like to take care of the dust regardless though. I think it accumulates whether the furnace/AC is on or not, but definitely worse with it on. It kicks on and I start to sneeze and nose starts running. But I can be out of my home for hours and be okay but when I step in, whether furnace is on or not, I start to itch my nose, feel irritated. Thanks for your help!

[CarolinaDawn]

Oh, what is "mastic" by the way?

[teddy bear]

thanks teddy bear. I guess it is hard to explain. The dehumidifiers are not only pulling moisture from the air at this point but are also pulling up all the moisture that is running thru our floors on its way to our sump pump. This is caused a horribly damp, dank feeling in the basement and since the water was not being allowed to go ahead and travel its intended path, the dehumidifiers hardly ever shut off even when I set them at 40%. I am not sure what to do about that. It smells so much better now, but I do worry about mold growth. It is a dilemma. The mold treatment should do its job. All surfaces have been treated and sealed with a mild antifungal that has a 10 yr warranty...if humidity kept below 50% tho :/

Reconsider the cause/effect of moisture in the floor and walls of your basement with your dehumidifiers.
<50%RH is critical in your basement and entire home. Saturated earth is under your concrete floor. A small amount of moisture moves through the concrete to the basement space. You must keep the space dry to avoid mold. When the outside air is +50^F dew point, infiltrating fresh air also carriers moisture into your home/basement. Not maintaining <50%RH because you feel less moisture gets to the drain is not acceptable. Not maintaining a fresh filtered air change and <50%RH are not acceptable for purging indoor pollutants and preventing growing biologicals. These are criiical issues. Get a new indoor air quality expert. ASHRAE and Americam Medical ASS suggest the fresh air change, merv 11 air filtering, and <50%RH.

Keep us posted.
Regards TB

[CarolinaDawn]

Ok, met with air quality guy and he tested our RH..it is about 50-51% so he recommended turning only one dehumidifier on and setting it to 50% so that it kicks on occasionally when needed and doesnt run constantly. he suggested the musty smell might be from the fresh concrete used in the waterproofing that has not yet totally cured. It certainly was somewhat of a damp cellar clay type of smell. So hopefully this will dissipate with time. He is going to have a blower door test done and check for leaks and then possible install a Energy Recovery Ventilator (ERV) to help keep the pressure positive instead of negative therefore not pulling as much debris from the walls. Has anyone heard of this device and is it helpful for this type of thing in your experience? It will cost anywhere from $$$ to $$$ installed tho! We have already spent thousands upon thousands on this home's environmental issues!!! NEVER again will I get a bank owned home where they sell it "AS IS." At least I have some hope now though. Any other thoughts from anyone? thanks so much for your help!!!

[teddy bear]

Ok, met with air quality guy and he tested our RH..it is about 50-51% so he recommended turning only one dehumidifier on and setting it to 50% so that it kicks on occasionally when needed and doesnt run constantly. he suggested the musty smell might be from the fresh concrete used in the waterproofing that has not yet totally cured. It certainly was somewhat of a damp cellar clay type of smell. So hopefully this will dissipate with time. He is going to have a blower door test done and check for leaks and then possible install a Energy Recovery Ventilator (ERV) to help keep the pressure positive instead of negative therefore not pulling as much debris from the walls. Has anyone heard of this device and is it helpful for this type of thing in your experience? It will cost anywhere from $$$ to $$$ installed tho! We have already spent thousands upon thousands on this home's environmental issues!!! NEVER again will I get a bank owned home where they sell it "AS IS." At least I have some hope now though. Any other thoughts from anyone? thanks so much for your help!!!

ERV to keep a positive pressure in your home is not the best way. An ERV is a balance flow device that exhaust as much air as it brings in. They do conserve energy but that is not your real problem.
This is not about how air tight your home is. On windy days, most homes get enough fresh air. On calm days, your home gets much less fresh air. Because of all the problems you are having, just bring in the correct amount of fresh, filtered air that will pressurize the space. Forget the exhaust part, your clothes drier, bath fans, and kitchen exhaust hood need make-up air. 2,500 sqft. home needs about 70-80 cfm of fresh air when occupied.
I like the idea of having enough dehumidification to maintain <50%RH during all of the variable weather you experience in your area. Right now the outdoor dew point is low and dehumidification is minimal. When the outdoor dew points are high, you need about 70-80 pints of dehumidification to maintain <50%RH.
Filtered, fresh air ventilation and maintain <50%RH is the guts of indoor air quality. The operating cost to do this with well designed equipment is from upto a $1 per day during hot/cold weather and nothing during mild weather.
You can do this with residiental dehumidifiers and a make-up air inlet on a good air handler/merv 11 air filter.
I suggest long term, use a whole house ventilaitng dehumidifier. Units like the Ultra-Aire whole house ventilating dehumidifier are designed to ventilate, filter, blend, and maintain <50%RH throughout the home. With 80 cfm of filtered make-up air, a positive pressure will reduce infiltration of unfiltered fresh air.
Most of us have had to learn these lessons in good air quality the hard way.
Brands of equipment are not critical.
Your local a/c contractor can do these things for a modest investment.
Have your IAQ man contact me for help if he is interested. I have +15 years of experience with these kind of problems.
Regards TB

[CarolinaDawn]

Thanks TB. I wanted to add that our outside air does not seem to be the problem. He has tested it against the inside air and the inside is where the problem is. Likely the broken down cellulose insulation inside the walls. The dust was tested and has a disproportionate amount of cellulose in it. Would the ERV not be able to create a more positive pressure system and let the dust stay in the walls? That seems to be the goal here. The amount of dust is our main problem right now since the dehumidification is going to be taken care of. We have at least a 13 MERV filter AprilAire expensive unit. We have also used room filters. This problem is much bigger than just getting a good furnace filter or even ensuring proper air exchange, etc. The dust is constant and very irritating to me, regardless of the weather outside. And even when there is no humidity. I am itching my face off so to speak and constantly blowing my nose. The "unfiltered fresh air" outside my home is WONDERFUL and I prefer it greatly to what I have to breath inside my house...

[teddy bear]

Would the ERV not be able to create a more positive pressure system and let the dust stay in the walls? That seems to be the goal here. The amount of dust is our main problem right now since the dehumidification is going to be taken care of. We have at least a 13 MERV filter AprilAire expensive unit. We have also used room filters. ...

Using only makeup air without exhaust will produce much more positive pressure on your home. More positive pressure will slow infilteration through the walls. This is important. During strong winds, nothing will will stop infiltration.
Regards TB