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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    7

    Trane xl16i opinions

    I had a huge posting that somehow didn"t make it through..this will be the shortened version.

    I think I have done my homework, here are the details. Existing system has serverd us well ~22 years old. St. Louis location, 1600 sqft home with finished basement, although basement is not conditioned from system, no vents. Manual J's have been done by myself and both contractors. Existing system is accurate for my ratings which came out to 2.7 tons for cooling, they have both rounded up to 3.

    I am looking at going with a duel fuel setup, HP and variable speed furnace. Contemplated the xv95 but we tend to keep the house cool and could not see a cost advantage/savings made up for the additional cost. Basically I looked at the 15% savings and the payback at my current usage was 15 years, with a more efficient furnace and HP I don't think I would ever see the savings unless NG goes through the roof.

    Looking at Trane xv80 and this is where it gets interesting, xr15, xl15i or xl16i HP. The contractor I have decided to go with has provided the AHRI numbers for each system that I am looking at, I have also found one other combination using a different coil that is a little more efficient.

    Here are the AHRI numbers:
    4177893
    4657116
    4657741
    and the one I came up with a different Coil
    4656926

    Now the dilemma is that the xl16i is the same price as the xr15 and actually cheaper then the xl15i. This is due to rebates that I can get from my local electric company. However I have read from various places that the 16i is not the best 2 stage unit and doesnt support dehumidfy on demand, although I was reading last night that the newer models may. We do have our fair share of humid weather in the summer so that is my concern.

    They will swap new linesets and just a common 4: pleated filter box. The one other thing I wanted was the ability to control a humidifer in the winter via the thermostat and have it set based on the outside temp. He has included the HW IAQ 2 HD Tstat - YTHX9421R5077. Which looks pretty nice and should be able to do dehumidify on demand but not sure if the xl16i supports it.

    Here are my current Rates:
    Electric Rates:
    Residential Energy Charges:
    $0.0945 per kwh for First 400 kwhs per billing period
    $0.0715 per kwh for Next 1400 kwhs per billing period
    $0.0535 per kwh for Over 1800 kwhs per billing period

    Gas Rates:
    Winter (November - April)
    1st 30 Therms �" $0.85579 + RG PGA Block 1
    Over 30 Therms - $0.00 + RG PGA Block 2
    RG PGA Block 1 as of 11/16/2012 - $0.33492
    RG PGA Block 2 as of 11/16/2012 - $0.57903

    Tried to hit the high points but looking for opinions on the xl16i vs the other options and see if I have missed anything...

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Keokuk, IA
    Posts
    5,520
    Correct, the XL16i won't do DoD without the Trane communicating thermostat. To make matters worse, for some reason, latent capacity (humidity removal) is also know to be unusually poor on the XL16i in 1st stage. SO oversizing the coil or the sytem will leave you with higher utility bills and a humid home. I think in some mathes the XL15i has been heating numbers too. St. Louis is still a cooler climate, although more balanced that further north where I am. But a high HSPF value in heating will save you more than a higher SEER value.

    The most important thing is to get a heat load done. IF you esiting systm wasn't running 100 of the time on a sunny humid afternoon when it was 94F or above to hold (not setback recovery) an indoor temp of 75, it's at least a little oversized. (design temp is not 100F BTW even if it gets that hot regularly... it's only 94F.) But since all 3 did it, and your happy wth the results, it's probably good. Since your inbetween 2.5 and 3 and 3 ton 2 stage is ideal.

    IF those electric and gas rates include all meter fees, etc... they look pretty favorable for dual fuel especially with the XV80.

    You might go ahead and look at the trane communicating controller to get DoD using an XC80. You might compare the prices on that with an XV95 and XL15i heat pump.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by motoguy128 View Post
    Correct, the XL16i won't do DoD without the Trane communicating thermostat. To make matters worse, for some reason, latent capacity (humidity removal) is also know to be unusually poor on the XL16i in 1st stage. SO oversizing the coil or the sytem will leave you with higher utility bills and a humid home. I think in some mathes the XL15i has been heating numbers too. St. Louis is still a cooler climate, although more balanced that further north where I am. But a high HSPF value in heating will save you more than a higher SEER value.

    The most important thing is to get a heat load done. IF you esiting systm wasn't running 100 of the time on a sunny humid afternoon when it was 94F or above to hold (not setback recovery) an indoor temp of 75, it's at least a little oversized. (design temp is not 100F BTW even if it gets that hot regularly... it's only 94F.) But since all 3 did it, and your happy wth the results, it's probably good. Since your inbetween 2.5 and 3 and 3 ton 2 stage is ideal.

    IF those electric and gas rates include all meter fees, etc... they look pretty favorable for dual fuel especially with the XV80.

    You might go ahead and look at the trane communicating controller to get DoD using an XC80. You might compare the prices on that with an XV95 and XL15i heat pump.
    Thanks, yeah I have done loads and the contracter, I forgot to mention that but the heat load is ~52,000, which is why he is pricing out a 80,000 xv80, 2 stage unit. Right now I am leaning at going with the xl15i and the xv80, if you look at the AHRI ratings the BTU output is about the same for all of the units but its the humidty control with the xl16i and the additional complexity of the system that concerns me.

    I do have a service charge for my electric, .30 cents a day or something like that but the rates are pretty good, even during the coldest months i almost never go over 100therms of usage with gas. The XV is and $800 upcharge and I just don't see us getting that back in savings, well maybe at around 15years.
    Last edited by bishoptf; 02-27-2013 at 09:49 AM. Reason: update load number

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    80
    This is the Ask Our Pro's forum, and only Pro members that have been vetted by the AOPC may post advise, commentary, or ask questions of the OP here.

    You can find the rules for posting and qualifications here.

    Further infractions may result in loss of posting privileges.
    Last edited by beenthere; 02-28-2013 at 04:21 PM. Reason: Non Pro * Member

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    7
    Let me ask this another way, is there any way to get a xl16i to do Dehumidify on Demand, motoguy mentioned teaming it up with an XC80 but I thought the newer xl16i were no longer communicating so I am not sure how that would help?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Savannah, Ga/H.H. Island, S.C.
    Posts
    1,276

    Trane xl16i opinions

    If you get a Trane communicating system with the Trane XL950 thermostat....you can will have the Comfort-R feature. This will allow dehum on demand.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Keokuk, IA
    Posts
    5,520
    I see that they did drop the communicating on the XL16i just looking at the basic description on the website. I guess they really want you to buy an XL20i. That's lame. Carrier and York both have 3 communicating models including a single stage unit. The XL15i and 16i should both be communicating in my opinion.

    The only other way to do DoD is to use a relay to force the unit the high stage, but the airflow would remain reduced. The idea being that hte percentage of latent capacity will be better, so even thoguh runtime is slightly shorter, more moisture will be removed. So effectively, when dehumidifying, you'd have the equvalent of a 3 ton XL15i with normal DoD functionality.

    I did this at my last home where I mistakingly (didn't know better at the time), let the installing put in an oversized 3 ton (only needed 2 tons) for more heating capacity. Worse, it had a 4 ton coil for a higher SEER ratings. THe result the first summer was eletric bills that were higher than my previous 9 SEER mismatched 19 year old AC unit, that was at least properly sized. At that was despite being one of the coolest summers on record. The following summer my bills dropped dramatically after using this set-up but oversizing still kept me from seeing the savings I should have had.

    However, will you dealer be willing to install a relay to do that?

    Another option to consider... go with a 2.5 Ton XL15i and keep the shades closeed on the south side of your home on the hottest days, install a cool roof design (if you roof is near repalcement) or plant a few trees, or live with hte house being 1-2F hotter on the hottest days, but having lower humidity overall. Besides, Manual J has a little built-in fudge factor. 0.2 tosn won't make that much difference.

    Besides, the heating numbers if my memory is correct, are not very good on a 3 ton XL16i... so a the 2.5 Ton XL15i will nearly match it in heat output anyway. I think same in cooling.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    80
    This is the Ask Our Pro's forum, and only Pro members that have been vetted by the AOPC may post advise, commentary, or ask questions of the OP here.

    You can find the rules for posting and qualifications here.

    Further infractions may result in loss of posting privileges.
    Last edited by beenthere; 02-28-2013 at 04:21 PM. Reason: Non Pro * Member

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    West Monroe, LA
    Posts
    1,439
    Quote Originally Posted by motoguy128 View Post
    I see that they did drop the communicating on the XL16i just looking at the basic description on the website. I guess they really want you to buy an XL20i. That's lame. Carrier and York both have 3 communicating models including a single stage unit. The XL15i and 16i should both be communicating in my opinion.

    The only other way to do DoD is to use a relay to force the unit the high stage, but the airflow would remain reduced. The idea being that hte percentage of latent capacity will be better, so even thoguh runtime is slightly shorter, more moisture will be removed. So effectively, when dehumidifying, you'd have the equvalent of a 3 ton XL15i with normal DoD functionality.

    I did this at my last home where I mistakingly (didn't know better at the time), let the installing put in an oversized 3 ton (only needed 2 tons) for more heating capacity. Worse, it had a 4 ton coil for a higher SEER ratings. THe result the first summer was eletric bills that were higher than my previous 9 SEER mismatched 19 year old AC unit, that was at least properly sized. At that was despite being one of the coolest summers on record. The following summer my bills dropped dramatically after using this set-up but oversizing still kept me from seeing the savings I should have had.

    However, will you dealer be willing to install a relay to do that?

    Another option to consider... go with a 2.5 Ton XL15i and keep the shades closeed on the south side of your home on the hottest days, install a cool roof design (if you roof is near repalcement) or plant a few trees, or live with hte house being 1-2F hotter on the hottest days, but having lower humidity overall. Besides, Manual J has a little built-in fudge factor. 0.2 tosn won't make that much difference.

    Besides, the heating numbers if my memory is correct, are not very good on a 3 ton XL16i... so a the 2.5 Ton XL15i will nearly match it in heat output anyway. I think same in cooling.
    I agree good points made in this post!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    DC Metro Area (MD)
    Posts
    3,350
    If not a properly sized XL15i, my next recommendation would be the XL20i. A 3 ton XL20i with a 2.7 ton cooling load would work just fine -- better than a 3 ton XL16i. While the XL16i is ~76% on low (2.3 ton), its sensible capacity outweights the latent capacity at AHRI conditions (SHR is about .86). These conditions are 95 deg F outdoor db temperature and 80 deg indoor drybulb temperature OP: Do you plan on keeping your indoor temperature at 80 deg F? If you instead maintain an indoor temperature of 75, on low stage SHR is about .65 at a 95 deg outdoor temp, which is the likely operating scenario given the load, if not at lower outdoor temps (~85 deg F) which would yield even lower SHR (better for dehumidification and longer runtimes). Trane provides extensive performance data for various operating conditions. With longer runtimes in low stage and a properly configured system (i.e., airflows properly set), the XL16i is a fine system when installed and sized properly. Not much different than any other 2-stage scroll system when it comes to performance. Large emphasis on the setup and installation of the equipment. But the XL20i with its separate compressors and 50/100 capacity split still outperforms it, however. The ComfortLink II system will give you dehumidification on demand capability among other features.
    Last edited by RyanHughes; 03-01-2013 at 12:01 AM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanHughes View Post
    If not a properly sized XL15i, my next recommendation would be the XL20i. A 3 ton XL20i with a 2.7 ton cooling load would work just fine -- better than a 3 ton XL16i. While the XL16i is ~76% on low (2.3 ton), its sensible capacity far outweighs the latent capacity on low stage, resulting in less dehumidification (SHR is about .86 on low at AHRI conditions, a little less at lower ambient temps). Granted, with longer runtimes in low stage and a properly configured system (i.e., airflows properly set), the XL16i is a fine system when installed and sized properly. But the XL20i with its separate compressors and 50/100 capacity split still outperforms it, however. The ComfortLink II system will give you dehumidification on demand capability among other features.
    Thanks ryan, yeah I looked at the numbers, my brother in law did some when he was up here visting, and both contractors are in the same ball park, around 2.7, so everyone has round up to 3, which is what I have installed now...I got pricing on the 20i and it was MUCH more, too much for this size house etc, so I am leaning towrds the xl15i HP with the xv80, still thinking about maybe going to the xv95 but I just dont see the payoff with the usage we have...meeting with the contractor in the morning to go over things, one last time before making my decision.

    To answer the question, we have ceiling fans in all the rooms, so we keep the temp around 78, maybe 77 before bedtime then it sets back...this summer when the temps were 110 i was running around 80 afraid to push the 20 yr old system

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    DC Metro Area (MD)
    Posts
    3,350
    Bishoptf, please see my updated post as I've looked into this further for you and added a bit more information. I still think the XL16i is a fine option if installed properly, but you won't go wrong with an XL15i either. The XL16i gets a bad rep but if you look at the numbers, it's really not much different than any other 2-stage system. You can do dehumidify on demand with the heat pump or air conditioner and the TAM7 air handler as well as either with the TAM8 and XL950, but to my knowledge you cannot with the XV95 yet due to the wiring terminal design. On the TAM7, you have separate Y1, Y2 and BK terminals.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    7
    Thanks, the kicker is the xl16i is actually cheaper due to the rebates I can get vs the xl15i...but not comfotable with the 16i unless I had a whole house dehumidifier, then I would not be worried about it..I will talk to him about that in the morning but think for that added expense I could go with the xv95 instead of the xv80 and have Dehumidify on demand with the xl15i....

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