ReplyOriginally Posted by MHall
More than likely not at all..... That is one seriously small piece of equipment.
Regular Guest
Thanks again. I was asking more specifically, if that type of boiler pictured would normally require an operator, perhaps in your area? Thanks for the clarification.
Professional Member*
More than likely not at all..... That is one seriously small piece of equipment.
If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.
Regular Guest
Why do you say that?Please be specific. Having been in this boiler room personally, I can tell you that the water heater is located on the other side of the room. This boiler is connected to a pump which sends heating hot water to radiators throughout the school for space heating.
Professional Member*
That boiler is puny.
I have buildings that have three or four of these used as water heaters. I realize this is being used to heat the building, but lets just say, if you look at it closely, it will have provisions to use it as a domestic water heater.
The operator rules typically come to a head when there is a danger of issues if the system is not monitored at all times, this would be virtually any high pressure steam boiler or boiler with "manual controls".
Other than the boiler you pictured being relatively small, it heats water.
Also, I would be willing to bet that if you look at the piping diagrams in the installation and maintenance manual, you would not see that piping as an example... I see three mistakes and that's just from a quick glance from a picture...
GT
If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.
Regular Guest
"Piping Mistakes"??? Now I'm curious. I will attach two other pictures, for you to view. Could you please elaborate on the "mistakes"? Thank you for your interest.
Professional Member*
"Piping Mistakes"??? Now I'm curious. I will attach two other pictures, for you to view. Could you please elaborate on the "mistakes"? Thank you for your interest.
Where is the blow down leg?
If the boiler were to be isolated from the piping via the isolation valves, would there be a relief valve?
Where are the dielectrics between the ferrous and non ferrous pipe materials?
Where is the vibration isolation for the pump?
Where is the labeling for identification?
I could go on, but I think you get the point...
Looks to me like a lowest bidder deal.
GT
If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.
Regular Guest
Thanks for your input. Would viewing a few more pictures help, with your anaylsis?
Professional Member*
I did not analyze it.
Nor do I care to, my point is that this is a pretty rough and somewhat unsafe install.
I believe the actual side clearance to flammable materials is one inch, however, I also believe they recommend 24" for serviceability...
All I am saying is that many times, just because it does not require an operator, does not make it safe, just that it is considered "unregulated" for the most part..
One of our local city inspectors would run out of red ink on that deal.
GT
If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.
Professional Member*
Also would hate to be the one to have to work in that fire panel.......
Would also want to opt out of replacing the circulation pump on the bottom of the boiler. I'm thinking there was little to no forethought in this install.
GT
If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.
Professional Member
The boiler in my dad's apartment building is about the same physical size as that thing....nobodies sat with it since I flipped the switch on (and performed a routine fall maintenance checkup) In October... It's a hot water boiler, BTW.
Also that install looks like hell. That may be cause there is not many (if any) in Dallas that actually knows hydronics that well! I sure hope that install is not your definition of what a hydronic heating set up is supposed to look like... You really should take a day off and read the wall at Heatinghelp.com....those people are living proof that steam and hot water is alive and well! and that we don't use "electric strip heat" in the north even though you throw that around seemingly not knowing what electric strip heat really is.
Professional Member*
Ha didn't even notice that, not sure how someone got away with that.
Edit in the last pics it looks like an optical illusion.
That is a tiny boiler, I have worked on boilers 10 times larger with know one to be found even near them. There is no reason for someone to monitor them, they have safeties o prevent any dangerous situations.
Professional Member*
LOL, is the pump sitting on a cobblestone?
Listen to GT (amongst others), he knows what he's talking about. To people who work commercial, that's nothing more than a big HW heater that you'd find in a house. No operator needed.
Regular Guest
I have yet to receive a reply on this question; "Why is district steam not utilized in newly constructed buildings for space heating?" The buildings that are connected to a city's steam loop always appear older. And by older, many date back to the 1800s.
Thanks for the input.
Professional Member*
Can you give a specific building as an example?
We don't have any such services in my immediate are, there is however such a thing in SoCal.
If I were the owner of the building I would insist on it.
If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.
Regular Guest
Buildings built after 1982, do not utilize any form of hydronic heat, be it on site boilers or district steam. I could show you plenty of older buildings which utilize district steam for space heating.
I found some information on another thread where another member of this site said the same thing. I will post that here when I get a chance.
Professional Member
Why don't you instead do research looking for buildings built after 1982 that DO utilize hot water, steam, or district steam?
Perhaps you should re read this thread! All the answers to your questions are right in front of you.
Regular Guest
I have toured several buildings. Those built after 1982; did not utilize hydronic heat.
I did tour a building built in 1904 that did have boilers for HW heating. Of course that building was over 100 years old..........
Regular Guest
I asked this question in another thread sometime back. Here was one response which led to my thinking:
BaldLoonie
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Join Date:May 2000
Location:Indianapolis, IN, USA
Posts:31,117Big office buildings need little heat. So long term, it probably doesn't pay to spend the big bucks on a boiler and piping just for a little morning warmup heat. Also less staff is needed on site without the boiler. And heat pumps, which were mentioned, would eliminate the need for strip heat since they can provide what little heat is needed very cheaply. You'll notice a big building with heat pumps will have the cooling tower running even in bitter weather since most of the suites will be cooling.
Professional Member*
I showed you a handful of brand new buildings here in NYC that are connecting to city steam. Why do you continually choose to ignore them?
Regular Guest
Other comments that give me the impression that boilers/district steam are no longer installed in new buildings:
supertek65
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Location:8th grade
Posts:13,812Cost cost cost.
But when gas and oil were cheap and comfort was more important than efficiency.
There were dual duct systems!
Heat was sized to be used with cooling in a dual duct application as are 100% of my accounts.
Now single duct vav.
Series and parallel fan powered boxes with strip heat on the perimeter! Basically to wash the windows!
Now they are using lighting with way less watts/btus.
The lack of heat from lighting decreases cooling load but
Increases the heating requirements.
Nothing is free!
DeltaT
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Location:Seattle, WA
Posts:7,274 Add to that the lack of skills and the emphasis of set it and forget it management based on some type of software looking over all the equipment now not being maintained by skilled workers that pretty much aren't available anymore and the pressure to get the highest rent possible over the short term with the absolute least amount of costs to the building owner and it adds up to what we experience today.
That would mean a penthouse and/or a basement would have to be built and used for non rental space. Any floor space that is horizontal is considerer rentable so it's not going to be used for machinery for heating/cooling the building. And that is also why any new or remodeled building has the HVAC stuff in the ceiling.
Back in the 70's there was a completely different mind set. Machine rooms were common and necessary simply because unitary equipment did not exist. Plus labor was way more skilled, built up systems were the only way to go. Air handlers typically were centralized and the cost of labor and the way of doing business including the costs of doing business was much more humane as compared to today.
It was a era of skill, pride in workmanship, heavily built equipment that would last (as it has) for years and years and a completely different mind set. Most of the money spent back then was based on long term, long lasting investments with a steady economic growth with long term tenants of all kinds.
Now, it's build a big box, fill it with the working stuff in places that are extrememly hard to reach and out of the way of any floor space, tenants that are pushed to extinction by costs and regulations, economic factors that can drive anyone out of business in a few years and technology as an excuse for long lasting and proper performing equipment of all kinds.
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